Vitamin A

[kinyonga]

There is a lot of controversy about whether all or any chameleons can convert beta carotene to vitamin A or not...I wonder if anyone would care to put forward any links to any scientific studies that have been done or personal experience concerning this with the hope that we might all learn from it?

I would also be interested in discussing the vitamin A or lack of it in insects. Anyone?

Here's some information to start off with....
http://chrisabraham.com/2007/04/13/the-four-horned-chameleon-or-chamaeleo-trioceros-quadricornis/
" Quads are sensitive to excessive vitamin A so we prefer not to use any commercial vitamin supplements but rely on using well-fed feeder insects. We do very occasionally use a mineral supplement such as Miner-All (O)."

 

[ChromaChameleons]

heres some info...

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?articleid=3027

 

[kinyonga]

Vitamin A in insects...notice the balance of phos./calcium in pinhead crickets...
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/35746/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
" Vitamin A concentrations were undetectable (fruit flies) to low in all samples; none met the recommended dietary vitamin A concentrations established for domestic carnivores."

Content in some insects...note that meal worms have "real" vitamin A...note what it says about praying mantises...
http://www.jstor.org/stable/3795868?seq=2


More L8r...

 

[JoshCrane1]

im really interested in this subject, i am not doing any vit A supplementation yet besides greeny and grainy gutloads, and multivitamins. because i dont wanna give too much or the wrong kind.


i know there is a lot of controversy, but i need to know what to give my girl.

so help me out.

 

[kinyonga]

Cockroaches can synthesize beta-carotene in their organism....
http://www.russia-ic.com/education_science/science/breakthrough/62/

 

[kinyonga]

Dragging this thread out again...
Concerning preformed vitamin A...I don't know how much of it is too much or too little...but I can tell you that in the last 15 years I have not given any prEformed vitamin A to any of my chameleons...and they have not had eye issues...with two exceptions...I had a panther that had cancer of the eye and a dwarf jackson's with a parasite in the eye.

When I say that I have used no preformed vitamin A, I mean that the supplements I use only have beta carotene sources of vitamin A in them, the crickets and superworms are fed greens, veggies and nothing that contains preformed vitamin A. Silkworms are fed only mulberry leaves off the trees in my yard. Waxworms are fed nothing that contains preformed vitamin A.

Now...I have no control over what the insects are fed before they reach me....but I gutload/feed them before I use them....and it has been said that insects don't contain much vitamin A...so the only prEformed should be what was in their gut from the food given before I got them.

This being said....how come my chameleons don't ever have signs of hypOvitaminosis A eye-related problems??

I would be interested in hearing from people who give their chameleons preformed vitamin A from a source that has no vitamin D3 in it who also don't supplement/feed any d3 to their chameleons or the insects that they feed to the chameleons.

 

[kinyonga]

I said..."I would be interested in hearing from people who give their chameleons preformed vitamin A from a source that has no vitamin D3 in it who also don't supplement/feed any d3 to their chameleons or the insects that they feed to the chameleons"...so nobody gives vitamin A without giving D3, etc.??

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

kinyonga,

It is a valiant effort but it is impossible. It is just too easy to accuse eye problems to vitamin A. It is like people going to a nutritionist asking how to lose weight and not liking the answer so they go somewhere else looking for a different easy way.

The only thing I don't understand in your posts is how or why are you tying vitamin D with it?

-chris

 

[kinyonga]

CleanLineChameleons said..."The only thing I don't understand in your posts is how or why are you tying vitamin D with it?"...because vitamin D3 is antagonistic to vitamin A and quite a few people keep giving preformed vitamin A along with vitamin D3.

I don't know enough to know how much of one balances how much of the other....but giving one affects the other...so what is the net result?? Was the amount of vitamin A really increased and helped the chameleon or did the amount of vitamin D3 also given along with the vitamin A just sort of cancel the affect out?? Another question...did this extra vitamin A and D3 cause any harm to the organs??

I don't pretend to know the answers...but I there is more to this vitamin A thing than people realize.

If chameleons in the wild are getting enough, then what are they getting it from?? If the insects are herbivores/vegetarians, then do they convert the beta carotene to vitamin A or do they not need vitamin A for anything other than vision? If they do convert it and need it then why is it said that insects don't have much vitamin A? If the insects are carnivorous, then they would get preformed vitamin A from any animal prey they ate...but again...do they need it or use it for anything other than vision?

If a chameleon eats a carnivorous insect then it would get some preformed vitamin A from what was in the gut of the insect even if the insect didn't use/need/make/retain any. If the insect eaten was an herbivore and as has been disputed lately the chameleon can't convert the beta carotene and the insect doesn't use/need/retain/make any preformed vitamin A...then the chameleon doesn't get much from the insect. This can be carried on to other things that the chameleon eats.

If this vitamin A dosing is helping the eye does it work (fix the eye) when given alone or only with the D3??

Too many questions I don't have the answers to....but I'm trying to learn more. I'll quit blabbering away now. Any vets or scientists out there that can comment on what I've said? Any comments from anyone else?

 

[summoner12]

I am not trying to say Chromachameleon isn't creditable, but I have trouble thinking his source is. The article lists some vegetables to use in a feeder gutload that are on lists of things not to feed a feeder insect. Am I just getting bad info or is this link giving bad info?

 

[bucky]

Ok,im confused...so basically,what should one do to supply vitamin A to their cham??

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Kinyonga,

This thread may be helpful, though I hate seeing it because much of it was taken out, but it has some good stuff in it.

https://www.chameleonforums.com/food-thought-12472/


-chris

 

[Tygerr]

The article lists some vegetables to use in a feeder gutload that are on lists of things not to feed a feeder insect.

I presume you're referring to something like spinach, because of the oxalates it contains?
I'm still not 100% convinced that all oxalate containing foods should be completely scratched off the list of possible gutloads. While oxalates do bind calcium and prevent it from being absorbed, what level of oxalates are actually being taken up by the cham via the feeder insects? I think if oxalate-rich plants are used exclusively as a gutload it might present problems, but in moderation and in combination with other food sources, there are probably beneficial nutrients to be derived from some of these 'risky' gutloads, despite a moderate uptake of oxalates. An example would be carrots - which are widely used as a gutload despite their oxalate content - which are a rich source of beta carotene.
While I'm personally not using many high-oxalate foods because I'm trusting the advice of more experienced keepers (and the countless articles on gutloading out there), I'd still like obtain more evidence of the actual effect of these oxalate-rich foods used as gutload (not fed directly). I suspect that a lot of the aversion to high-oxalate foods in herpetoculture came from initial experiences with the herbivorous/omnivorous species like iguanas.

Ok,im confused...so basically,what should one do to supply vitamin A to their cham??

Well, I think that's the point of Lynda's thread - should we even be supplementing pre-formed Vit A to our chams or not? Or should we just be providing beta carotene rich gutloads to our feeder insects? There has been much speculation on this subject, but hard scientific data is still lacking.

 

[summoner12]

I presume you're referring to something like spinach, because of the oxalates it contains?
I'm still not 100% convinced that all oxalate containing foods should be completely scratched off the list of possible gutloads. While oxalates do bind calcium and prevent it from being absorbed, what level of oxalates are actually being taken up by the cham via the feeder insects? I think if oxalate-rich plants are used exclusively as a gutload it might present problems, but in moderation and in combination with other food sources, there are probably beneficial nutrients to be derived from some of these 'risky' gutloads, despite a moderate uptake of oxalates. An example would be carrots - which are widely used as a gutload despite their oxalate content - which are a rich source of beta carotene.

I didn't know carrots were bad. I have read about not using Spinach and Broccoli. I feed my feeders carrots all the time. It isn't a stable feeder food, but it is easy to just toss some into the cage with the crickets or dubia. I do this because I know I won't find half a carrot rotting away. Whenever I use greens I find them later in the day half dried out and crickets just hiding in the greens. I also have a lot of die off when I use greens. Even if I clean them I still lose lots of crickets.

I have no calcium issues as far as I know with my guys.

 

[Tygerr]

I didn't know carrots were bad.

Don't misquote me (otherwise I'll have a whole host of keepers jumping down my throat). I didn't say carrots were 'bad', I just said that carrots were high in oxalates.
If you look that the table in the link below, you'll see that carrots have an oxalate-calcium ratio that's up there with spinach and broccoli, and contains less calcium than broccoli, and has a lower calcium-phosphorus ratio than spinach.
My question is why broccoli and spinach get the bad rap as a gutload, but carrots continue to be used extensively? (and as I said, my suspicion is that it comes from herps that feed on the spinach/broccoli directly, the herbivores).
Calcium Oxalate Content of Selected Iguana Foods

But maybe this discussion should be continued in another thread. I don't want to hijack Lynda's discussion about vitamin A.

 

[bucky]

Sorry, but what is preformed vit A?

 

[summoner12]

Don't misquote me (otherwise I'll have a whole host of keepers jumping down my throat). I didn't say carrots were 'bad', I just said that carrots were high in oxalates.
If you look that the table in the link below, you'll see that carrots have an oxalate-calcium ratio that's up there with spinach and broccoli, and contains less calcium than broccoli, and has a lower calcium-phosphorus ratio than spinach.
My question is why broccoli and spinach get the bad rap as a gutload, but carrots continue to be used extensively? (and as I said, my suspicion is that it comes from herps that feed on the spinach/broccoli directly, the herbivores).
Calcium Oxalate Content of Selected Iguana Foods

But maybe this discussion should be continued in another thread. I don't want to hijack Lynda's discussion about vitamin A.

You didn't directly say they were bad. You did just provide a chart that puts carrots higher up on the list of 'things not to feed' if you were going on the 'high oxalates are bad' method. So if I have read that those greens are bad due to the levels of oxalates and carrots are close in number, I would say 'they are bad'

I agree, it would be nice to see some proof in the pudding. If a good mix of gutload is provided maybe it doesn't matter there are oxalates in the feed.

 

[CleanLineChameleons]

Retinol and retinal are preformed vitamin A, it comes from livers of animals, such as cod liver oil. Beta carotene is not preformed vitamin A and is the vitamin A found in plants. Now one thing to remember is that chameleons, and humans for that matter, can overdose on preformed vitamin A. There won't be any warning signs that they are getting too much until it has reached a toxic levels in the body. The true question arises if a chameleon or its feeders can convert beta carotene into a usable vitamin A. I feel somewhere down the line they can but there is no hard evidence either way.

I am no expert, I can only try to take in bits and pieces what my other half tells me (she says too much for me to try to remember everything), she is a nutritionist with a minor in chemistry and has a pretty good grasp on foods down to a molecular level. She tends to speak over my head

-chris