Vit. A

[DeremensisBlue]

There is something here that doesn't add up. If this chameleon had been getting Repashy LoD every feeding, those vitamin A stores should be well filled. Even dropping down to Earthpro-A (or even plain calcium) every feeding and Reptivite every two weeks he is still getting pre-formed vitamin A in the Reptivite. Vitamin A is fat soluble so it gets stored. It is hard to think that going from preformed A every feeding down to twice a month would produce a vitamin A deficiency in one month's time. Considering entire collections go without preformed vitamin A for years there is something not fitting with this situation.

This could be a mis-diagnosis on the vet's part, but, if the shot works then there is something to it. The thing is that if it is a vitamin A deficiency, I suggest looking deeper than the supplements. Your supplement routine has way more vitamin A than most chameleons get. Your switch over to Arcadia EarthPro-A every feeding and Reptivite every other week is bringing your routine in line with what is common.

 

[kinyonga]

It doesn't strike me as a vitamin A issue either.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Hey this is the RevitaliseD3 how does it compare... I am not very good at all with this stuff lol. I think it runs much lower then the others you posted?

Here is a handy way to think of the vitamin A levels that doesn't involve IUs:
Repashy Calcium Plus = 2* Reptivite = 2.5*Repashy Calcium Plus LoD = 8.6* RevitaliseD3

So, Reptivite is half the level of Repashy Calcium Plus. Calcium Plus LoD is just a bit under Reptivite. RevitaliseD3 is way down there. You need 3.5 doses of RevitaliseD3 to equal the levels you get with Calcium Plus LoD.
Understanding all of this becomes important when we start talking about fat soluble vitamins because they stay in the system. But with a number of panther chameleon breeders giving Repashy Calcium Plus every feeding it does show how much they can take without overdose. And with the number of collections that give no pre-formed vitamin A you have a lower limit that makes the whole situation very difficult to box into a black and white advice sound bite.

 

[Beman]

Here is a handy way to think of the vitamin A levels that doesn't involve IUs:
Repashy Calcium Plus = 2* Reptivite = 2.5*Repashy Calcium Plus LoD = 8.6* RevitaliseD3

So, Reptivite is half the level of Repashy Calcium Plus. Calcium Plus LoD is just a bit under Reptivite. RevitaliseD3 is way down there. You need 3.5 doses of RevitaliseD3 to equal the levels you get with Calcium Plus LoD.
Understanding all of this becomes important when we start talking about fat soluble vitamins because they stay in the system. But with a number of panther chameleon breeders giving Repashy Calcium Plus every feeding it does show how much they can take without overdose. And with the number of collections that give no pre-formed vitamin A you have a lower limit that makes the whole situation very difficult to box into a black and white advice sound bite.

Thank you. So when you say revitaliseD3 needs 3.5 doses to equal Calcium plus LoD. You mean 3.5 doses to just 1 dose of the calcium plus LoD right? Seems like a ton of fat soluble supplements when it comes to the repashy products. I know kammerflage uses it successfully but they were using it with T8 lighting when I had inquired with them last year and were testing it with T5 lighting. It is interesting to me also how one will not show any adverse reactions but others do. We have seen in the forum that female Veileds seem to have a harder time with the repashy and end up with edema. But once they change supplements the edema subsides.

 

[DeremensisBlue]

Thank you. So when you say revitaliseD3 needs 3.5 doses to equal Calcium plus LoD. You mean 3.5 doses to just 1 dose of the calcium plus LoD right? Seems like a ton of fat soluble supplements when it comes to the repashy products. I know kammerflage uses it successfully but they were using it with T8 lighting when I had inquired with them last year and were testing it with T5 lighting. It is interesting to me also how one will not show any adverse reactions but others do. We have seen in the forum that female Veileds seem to have a harder time with the repashy and end up with edema. But once they change supplements the edema subsides.

RevitaliseD3 has 23k IU/lb of vitamin A while LoD has 80k IU/lb if that helps visualize it. But of course, what is an IU? I haven't been able to easily explain that so this is good for getting a relative feel only

The UVB light doesn't have an effect on vitamin A as far as I know. As far as D3, Kammerflage did use T8 and T5 lighting and found no difference. But that is not surprising. As long as the dietary D3 is less than what they need, they use UVB to "top off the tank" and then the rest of the UVB is no longer used. So you could go to a T5 14% on top of the cage and you would not get a D3 overdose. You would have other serious problems, but not a D3 overdose. The whole protest that we cannot use the Kammerflage situation because they were using T8s was/is bouncing around Facebook because of a misunderstanding of how UVB works. (once again, loud voices do not mean they know what they are talking about).

And, yes, the interaction with supplements and edema is very poorly understood and there are so many factors that go into them that looking just at supplements is like judging the iceberg by what you see above the water. We fiddle with the supplements, but that may just be 10% of the issue and removing that 10% just takes the real issue sub-edema levels.

 

[Ramrod]

Hey this is the RevitaliseD3 how does it compare... I am not very good at all with this stuff lol. I think it runs much lower then the others you posted?

View attachment 278814

Thanks, yeah it is lower but I am a user of arcadia products so I'll give it a look. By the way, Drake is shooting his tongue better today than yesterday. Not fully but he would not use it at all before injection. Today 3 silks and a big dubia?

 

[Ramrod]

There is something here that doesn't add up. If this chameleon had been getting Repashy LoD every feeding, those vitamin A stores should be well filled. Even dropping down to Earthpro-A (or even plain calcium) every feeding and Reptivite every two weeks he is still getting pre-formed vitamin A in the Reptivite. Vitamin A is fat soluble so it gets stored. It is hard to think that going from preformed A every feeding down to twice a month would produce a vitamin A deficiency in one month's time. Considering entire collections go without preformed vitamin A for years there is something not fitting with this situation.

This could be a mis-diagnosis on the vet's part, but, if the shot works then there is something to it. The thing is that if it is a vitamin A deficiency, I suggest looking deeper than the supplements. Your supplement routine has way more vitamin A than most chameleons get. Your switch over to Arcadia EarthPro-A every feeding and Reptivite every other week is bringing your routine in line with what is common.

Great thinking. If things don't improve I will be digging deeper. Thanks