Very Excited!
- Thread starter Justyn
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No, I ment flood the market with adults. While I am keeping some animals for myself, I also make my living importing specimens that I offer for sale. I will be offering WC adults, but not many in the USA as I do not want to "flood the market" in the USA where the price will have to drop.
PEPPERQUILL1
New Member
Yeah?Rhampholeons come in on just about everyones paperwork as Rhampholeon sp.A few different species are normally in the mix.Joe had quota for alot of them as he breeds them.
PEPPERQUILL1
New Member
Be here Monday?I take it you don't import to much.It can go one way or the other.Well, they are hatched and will be here Monday. So I'm counting them.
Yes, Joe has quotas for captive bred specimens of Rhampholeon acuminatus, but not Rhampholeon viridis. We have already seen CB specimens come in. He doesn't have that much stock of Rhampholeon acuminatus to my understanding, so he only produces so many offspring a year. Nick with have a better idea on what is going on in Joe's world then I would however.
As for several species in the mix under one species, yes, that is true. Still it is illegal to bring them in knowingly (or unknowingly) under a different name. This applies in Tanzania and in the US. You would be violating the Lacey Act, and several other laws as well. That is why I spent the extra time and money bringing them in correctly. If I see anyone else bring them into the USA without the proper paperwork (only CBB will be allowed, aka Joe’s stock), be sure I will be reporting them to the proper authorities and they will getting a nice call and knock on the door for smuggling. I've worked too hard, care to much, and spent too much money to see someone follow up behind me and rape the wild of these specimens in wholesale. I could have easily asked my exporter to ship them out as a more common species, but it would have been illegal.
As for several species in the mix under one species, yes, that is true. Still it is illegal to bring them in knowingly (or unknowingly) under a different name. This applies in Tanzania and in the US. You would be violating the Lacey Act, and several other laws as well. That is why I spent the extra time and money bringing them in correctly. If I see anyone else bring them into the USA without the proper paperwork (only CBB will be allowed, aka Joe’s stock), be sure I will be reporting them to the proper authorities and they will getting a nice call and knock on the door for smuggling. I've worked too hard, care to much, and spent too much money to see someone follow up behind me and rape the wild of these specimens in wholesale. I could have easily asked my exporter to ship them out as a more common species, but it would have been illegal.
PEPPERQUILL1
New Member
Understand where you are coming from but loose the attitude.Their are loop holes and such around getting them in, again they are a non CITES species, their are ways around it and ways to get permits.I know the legalities of importing not worth doing anything illigal.Im curious if your not getting them from Joe do you tust that they are really cb?
Please understand my frustration. You suggested these animals could be imported without the proper paperwork from the wildlife authorties in Tanzania. I know that this is illegal. The exporters will collect them and export them perhaps, but it is still illegal. I went through a lot to make sure everything was conducted legally, it would be VERY frustrating to see someone do it through "loopholes". I prefer to acquire my animals through ethical and legal means. Yes, they could clear USFWS, but they would still be in violation of the Lacey Act, and well as misrepresented to customs, USFWS, etc. I don't want to know how many laws that would break.
It's not about CITES, it about Tanzanian law. Non-CITES animals need trophy permits from Tanzania. You can not legally export animals there under just the genus name, you ned both the genus and the species. USFWS will even reject trophy permits with just the genus name, as they are not legal. When you violate Tanzania law and export specimens under a different name or genus name, you have just violated the Lacey Act.
As for my animals, they are WC. We secured permits for WC specimens for the next two years. I never claimed they were CB, I just said if other animals came in legally, they would be from Joe as no one else there is breeding them. I commend Joe's efforts and hope he will continue to provide quality animals through Nick and others in the future.
It's not about CITES, it about Tanzanian law. Non-CITES animals need trophy permits from Tanzania. You can not legally export animals there under just the genus name, you ned both the genus and the species. USFWS will even reject trophy permits with just the genus name, as they are not legal. When you violate Tanzania law and export specimens under a different name or genus name, you have just violated the Lacey Act.
As for my animals, they are WC. We secured permits for WC specimens for the next two years. I never claimed they were CB, I just said if other animals came in legally, they would be from Joe as no one else there is breeding them. I commend Joe's efforts and hope he will continue to provide quality animals through Nick and others in the future.
madatintenseherps
New Member
Don't do business with Justyn Miller
Justyn Miller is nothing but a thief. He will rip you off like he has done to many others.
Check out this link
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97408&page=1&pp=5
Justyn Miller is nothing but a thief. He will rip you off like he has done to many others.
Check out this link
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97408&page=1&pp=5
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
R. acuminatus is the official scientific name for the "R. montana"/"R. montanus"/"undescribed montane Rhampholeon" that have been known for a decade (original scientific specimens were collected in 1997). They were only officially described and named last year, however. In the same paper describing the R. acuminatus, the R. viridis were described.
I'm fairly certain that the number of trophy permits issued for R. brevicaudatus is actually incredibly small and that they really only come in to the market in any number due to these illegal means being mentioned. Basically, anyone who has purchased R. brevicaudatus is probably in violation of the Lacey Act. Better get dialing Justyn, there are a lot of R. brevicaudatus importers to go after too.
I don't mean to be flip and I understand your frustrations and wanting to protect the investment you've made but the public boasting with associated threats and declarations on your intention to milk every dime you can out of this project comes across as pretty juvenile and shallow for someone claiming to give a damn about their status in the wild. Lets be honest here, your motivation is a lot more about the money then about the status of the animals in the wild as you've alluded to in your posts. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be proud about getting permits to go into protected wildlife reserves to collect wild caught specimens from a species you said yourself is from an extremely limited range. I don't blame you for seeing it as an investment and trying to make money off of it but you're just spewing hypocrisy. If you're going to try to sell the "I'm doing it legally and ethically and prevent anyone else from using a loophole so as not to rape the species in the wild" line, you better find a better way to spin your project then "I'm going into a protected nature reserve to collect a species from a very limited range."
On another note, notifying FWS on the Lacey Act violations of anyone trying to bring these species in will surely bring a lot of attention to the violations in the import of all the other Rhampholeon species. Maybe it would be for the best, especially from the stand point of their status in the wild, but I'm sure the resulting busts on anyone importing brevs would make you very popular in the reptile community (although what would another 830 post thread on Intense Herpetoculture on the BOI possibly due that the first didn't).
I'm very interested in seeing both of these species available to serious keepers in the future. I think its great that they will come in. I also applaud the effort to go through the proper channels to do it legally. I do, however, think your claims of ethical practices are flawed when by your own admission you are going to be collecting from reserves.
Chris
Edit for reference:
I'm fairly certain that the number of trophy permits issued for R. brevicaudatus is actually incredibly small and that they really only come in to the market in any number due to these illegal means being mentioned. Basically, anyone who has purchased R. brevicaudatus is probably in violation of the Lacey Act. Better get dialing Justyn, there are a lot of R. brevicaudatus importers to go after too.
I don't mean to be flip and I understand your frustrations and wanting to protect the investment you've made but the public boasting with associated threats and declarations on your intention to milk every dime you can out of this project comes across as pretty juvenile and shallow for someone claiming to give a damn about their status in the wild. Lets be honest here, your motivation is a lot more about the money then about the status of the animals in the wild as you've alluded to in your posts. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be proud about getting permits to go into protected wildlife reserves to collect wild caught specimens from a species you said yourself is from an extremely limited range. I don't blame you for seeing it as an investment and trying to make money off of it but you're just spewing hypocrisy. If you're going to try to sell the "I'm doing it legally and ethically and prevent anyone else from using a loophole so as not to rape the species in the wild" line, you better find a better way to spin your project then "I'm going into a protected nature reserve to collect a species from a very limited range."
On another note, notifying FWS on the Lacey Act violations of anyone trying to bring these species in will surely bring a lot of attention to the violations in the import of all the other Rhampholeon species. Maybe it would be for the best, especially from the stand point of their status in the wild, but I'm sure the resulting busts on anyone importing brevs would make you very popular in the reptile community (although what would another 830 post thread on Intense Herpetoculture on the BOI possibly due that the first didn't).
I'm very interested in seeing both of these species available to serious keepers in the future. I think its great that they will come in. I also applaud the effort to go through the proper channels to do it legally. I do, however, think your claims of ethical practices are flawed when by your own admission you are going to be collecting from reserves.
Chris
Edit for reference:
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Vibrant Chameleons
Avid Member
As I had thought from my previous post, this guy is just in it to milk every red cent from the North American collectors and keepers. He joins the site this month, then brags about the species he's getting in. In the same breath, he tells people he's not selling them here in the USA so that he doesn't ruin his shot at getting top dollar for his efforts lol... How sad. He's not a fella I'd ever care to do business with.
Dyesub Dave
New Member
First ....
... and then ....
I'm confused? So if this is the case will you be reporting him??
As per .....
I'm not trying to jump in with everybody else here I'm just trying to understand what you're saying as it seems that you're being contradictory in some of your statements.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also ... I didn't see anything negative in the link above? Perhaps I should search around more but the actual link that you posted has people talking of good experiences dealing with this individual. I would think that if you're going to badmouth somebody you should at least have the proper information behind it!!
Just my 5 1/2 cents worth!!
Dyesub Dave.
... and then ....
I'm confused? So if this is the case will you be reporting him??
As per .....
I'm not trying to jump in with everybody else here I'm just trying to understand what you're saying as it seems that you're being contradictory in some of your statements.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also ... I didn't see anything negative in the link above? Perhaps I should search around more but the actual link that you posted has people talking of good experiences dealing with this individual. I would think that if you're going to badmouth somebody you should at least have the proper information behind it!!
Just my 5 1/2 cents worth!!
Dyesub Dave.
Wait, I'm selling specimens in the USA. I will not be sell ALL the specimens in the USA as I do not think the market can accept that amount of animals without the market price being forced to go down. If the market price goes down on the animals it wouldn't be worth it to collect them. That would cause our permits being sold to another exporter, causing the wholesale collection and possible extinction of certain localities of animals. I do not want this to happen. Right now I can controt the quanity of WC animals being collected, and it is being done and will continue to be done responsibly.
I don't understand what the fuss is about. I'm very happy that I get to bring these species in. Whom I choose to sell them to and where is my business. This forum is about an exchange of ideas. I got excited so I felt the need to post this information, I guess I was wrong to expect people to get excited over something they themselves might not be benefitting from.
I don't understand what the fuss is about. I'm very happy that I get to bring these species in. Whom I choose to sell them to and where is my business. This forum is about an exchange of ideas. I got excited so I felt the need to post this information, I guess I was wrong to expect people to get excited over something they themselves might not be benefitting from.
No, I will not be reporting Nick. He didn't bring in R. viridis on purpose, a single male came in. Nick is a good guy and I commend him for offering Joe's F1 animals in the USA, a drastic improvement over regaulrly imported WC chams. I hope Nick will be able to provide both species as F1 in the future.
As for the BOI, I screwed up. I admit this. I took deposits for animals I didn't have in my hands. It's the only time I've done it, it was a mistake, and I wil never do it again. I'm fixing that hole I dug. I've been in business for many years and prior to this I gave stellar service too all my customers providing them with rare animals. I continue to do this to all my customers. You can read the Fauna thread for yourself, weed thru the lies to the truth, and come to your own conclusion.
I don't understand why the BOI thread is even concerned here. I'm not offer these animals on this forum and have not intention. I never even brought up selling them until I was asked about it. I plan to post photos and experiences on this forum, after all, I was a hobbyist before I started to sell them.
As for the BOI, I screwed up. I admit this. I took deposits for animals I didn't have in my hands. It's the only time I've done it, it was a mistake, and I wil never do it again. I'm fixing that hole I dug. I've been in business for many years and prior to this I gave stellar service too all my customers providing them with rare animals. I continue to do this to all my customers. You can read the Fauna thread for yourself, weed thru the lies to the truth, and come to your own conclusion.
I don't understand why the BOI thread is even concerned here. I'm not offer these animals on this forum and have not intention. I never even brought up selling them until I was asked about it. I plan to post photos and experiences on this forum, after all, I was a hobbyist before I started to sell them.
First ....
... and then ....
I'm confused? So if this is the case will you be reporting him??
As per .....
I'm not trying to jump in with everybody else here I'm just trying to understand what you're saying as it seems that you're being contradictory in some of your statements.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also ... I didn't see anything negative in the link above? Perhaps I should search around more but the actual link that you posted has people talking of good experiences dealing with this individual. I would think that if you're going to badmouth somebody you should at least have the proper information behind it!!
Just my 5 1/2 cents worth!!
Dyesub Dave.
Trace
Captain Awesome
Super-duper. Next sentence:
Are you are or you not selling them in the U.S.
I get excited over the captive propagation of rare, very rare and/or nearly extinct species of chameleons. Which is why I work with the species I do... Oh and for the record, I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than work with the Rhampholeon, Rieppeleon and Brookesia chams ever again; so jealously is not an issue with me,
I guess I've had it wrong this whole time... monetary gain, not extending our knowledge of these animals is the primary reason to be in the hobby at all.
Good luck with your new critters.
t
I appreciate this post, you seem to know what you are talking about. Yes, I am trying to make money, but before I even had my exporter obtain permits I thought long and hard about this. I wanted to make sure this was not going to open up the flood gates and cause this species to be stripped from the wild in huge numbers like the rest.
I did not mean to come across quite so abrasive, but as you can see above I am concerned about this species being collected illegally and being exported in large numbers.
Yes, the animals are found in reserves. Most WC TZ chameleons for sale in the US have been collected from reserves, except they have been collected illegally. So yes, I would like to make money, that's what I am in business for. I spent alot of money making sure this was done ethically and legally.
As for R. brevicaudatus, you are correct. I don't plan on reporting anyone regarding this species. It has a large range and fairly prolific and I see no threat of the pet trade causing it's extinction. Still, if I see a rare species of any sort coming in illegally in huge numbers, whether I have an investment in it or not, I will report it. I think we all have the responsibility to do this to protect the animals interests first and foremost.
I did not mean to come across quite so abrasive, but as you can see above I am concerned about this species being collected illegally and being exported in large numbers.
Yes, the animals are found in reserves. Most WC TZ chameleons for sale in the US have been collected from reserves, except they have been collected illegally. So yes, I would like to make money, that's what I am in business for. I spent alot of money making sure this was done ethically and legally.
As for R. brevicaudatus, you are correct. I don't plan on reporting anyone regarding this species. It has a large range and fairly prolific and I see no threat of the pet trade causing it's extinction. Still, if I see a rare species of any sort coming in illegally in huge numbers, whether I have an investment in it or not, I will report it. I think we all have the responsibility to do this to protect the animals interests first and foremost.
Kent67
Retired Moderator
I was excited for you until I saw the now 167 PAGE, 830 POST thread about the people you've been promising refunds to for 6 months. Personally, I find it extremely bad taste to be talking about how much money you've spent paying Tanzanian officials to allow you to collect animals from RESERVES while you still owe your customers thousands.
Yes I will be offering limtied numbers in the USA, the rest will be sent to Europe and Japan.
As for benefits, I did not mean the money, I meant working with the species and the knowledge you gain from it. Money only does so much.
As for benefits, I did not mean the money, I meant working with the species and the knowledge you gain from it. Money only does so much.
Dyesub Dave
New Member
Also ... I didn't see anything negative in the link above? Perhaps I should search around more but the actual link that you posted has people talking of good experiences dealing with this individual. I would think that if you're going to badmouth somebody you should at least have the proper information behind it!!
Dyesub Dave.
OOPPSS ... I see that this forum only has 5 posts per page! I guess I have some reading to do!
Dyesub Dave.
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