Pickle-cham
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ok so when it says veiled tested means its tested as a food source too? Think that's the one i seen on fl chams
Veiled killed his first live plant
- Thread starter jacksonchamnew
- Start date
It means if Veileds eat them it won't kill them or cause known harm. lol That those plants have been used with Veileds successfully. That list is from Bill Strand's new site chameleonacademy.com
DocZ
Chameleon Enthusiast
I’ve wondered about the “safe plant” lists. It seems that the safe plant lists is only safe because someone has observed them being eaten, the Cham didn’t die, and thus it’s safe.
Many of these are considered unsafe with plant eaters, which I think refers more to omnivorous and herbivorous lizards, due to high oxalates leading to poor calcium absorption from the animals gut. Same reason you’d tell someone not to use spinach in their gut load
Many of these are considered unsafe with plant eaters, which I think refers more to omnivorous and herbivorous lizards, due to high oxalates leading to poor calcium absorption from the animals gut. Same reason you’d tell someone not to use spinach in their gut load
DocZ
Chameleon Enthusiast
The chameleon academy says this about poisonous plants:
Special Mention of "Poisonous" Plants
We in the chameleon world are in a difficult position that we have no idea which plants are poisonous to chameleons. The poison lists we have are for mammals and birds which are just not transferable to chameleons. Although many species are reported to take a nibble here and there, it is the veiled chameleon that is our plant muncher. So we will use the Veiled Chameleon as our point chameleon in our exploration as to what plants are and are not poisonous to chameleons. Veiled Chameleons have been known to ignore the poison lists no matter how much we tell them they will die. Pothos, Ficus benjamina, and Schefflera are all considered toxic, but are regularly reduced to stems by Veiled Chameleons. But they also continue to eat plants that are considered more dangerous such as philodendron and croton. So what can we determine from this? Only that our present lists are not terribly useful. On the bright side, you can follow the present “safe plant” lists for chameleons and you will be fine. But we must not overstate the significance of those lists. We must realize that our confidence in telling people what plants are dangerous might be exaggerated. Please enjoy a mini-gallery of the remnants of poisonous plants that did not affect a Veiled Chameleon.
Special Mention of "Poisonous" Plants
We in the chameleon world are in a difficult position that we have no idea which plants are poisonous to chameleons. The poison lists we have are for mammals and birds which are just not transferable to chameleons. Although many species are reported to take a nibble here and there, it is the veiled chameleon that is our plant muncher. So we will use the Veiled Chameleon as our point chameleon in our exploration as to what plants are and are not poisonous to chameleons. Veiled Chameleons have been known to ignore the poison lists no matter how much we tell them they will die. Pothos, Ficus benjamina, and Schefflera are all considered toxic, but are regularly reduced to stems by Veiled Chameleons. But they also continue to eat plants that are considered more dangerous such as philodendron and croton. So what can we determine from this? Only that our present lists are not terribly useful. On the bright side, you can follow the present “safe plant” lists for chameleons and you will be fine. But we must not overstate the significance of those lists. We must realize that our confidence in telling people what plants are dangerous might be exaggerated. Please enjoy a mini-gallery of the remnants of poisonous plants that did not affect a Veiled Chameleon.
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
Not sure I can be very articulate, but the calcium oxalate in plants has already bound to the plants calcium and should have no effect on leeching calcium from the animal that eats the plant.
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
The effect pothos has to a cat or dog is possible esophageal irritation and GI upset. Isn’t fatal.
DocZ
Chameleon Enthusiast
That’s from the oxalate crystals being released is my understanding
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
You lose me on chemistry. Lol. I know this subject of ‘safe’ plants comes up very often and the truth is that no one really knows what is ‘safe’. @kinyonga has been trying to figure out why veileds devour their plants and how they digest them.
DocZ
Chameleon Enthusiast
I really enjoy discussions like this trying to break down the why of the “rules”
jacksonchamnew
Avid Member
Trying to get Cham off them. Can eat 4 or more everyday. Has dusted crickets in there now. I put in 5 crickets.
MissSkittles
Chameleon Enthusiast
Best way to expand knowledge. I’m not good with chemistry/biochemistry at all though, so can only question so much. Lol. It would be so great if someone would do a study on what it is that causes veileds to eat plants and be able to digest them. Petr Necas says veileds feces has been found with undigested leaves. I am yet to find anything undigested or even partially digested from my voracious plant nibblers. Is it the veiled form of pica? Is it a survival instinct? Do they just like the taste or texture? Are they bored? So many questions and so few answers.
Mrjamwin
Chameleon Enthusiast
We have a Mass Cane in our male Veils enclosure and there at bite marks all over the plant. He's not eating it, he's just biting it. The funny thing is you can see bite marks in the middle of the leaf and it makes me wonder how the heck is he even doing that. So now my wife and I look for new bite mark patterns as a challenge. Maybe my cham is just weird.
From what I've read/leaned about oxalates, this is exactly right...if the oxalates are already bound to calcium like they are I pothos they not drain calcium from system of the "eater". In some plants they are not bound in the plant and will bind with the calcium in the system of the eater.
Further information...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/pothos.974/
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/pothos.974/
Pickle-cham
Chameleon Enthusiast
With all that been said still concerns me somewhat guess it's one of them it wont kill your cham but unknown if it harms or its long term effects. It's use in chameleon enclosures is more to do with its hardiness to survive without having to provide additional lighting & vining properties with a bonus air purifier (which worries me further as what does it pull out of the air and how is that processed within the plant).
OP says it has killed the plant as in eaten most of it, the thread of toxicology just shared leads to a prognosis that too much consumption of the oxylates bound with calcium can lead to renal failure- which can be known as an issue with chameleons in captivity (ould there be a link) i guess it a risk upto the individual keeper to make, like not having a thermostat to stop your cham burning itself.are we sure its not doing harm allowing it eat it guess that's why it is still an ongoing debate . Think I'll stay on the side of for non plant eating species only. But ive never kept a veiled and i certainly haven't done experiments on them to draw my conclusion
OP says it has killed the plant as in eaten most of it, the thread of toxicology just shared leads to a prognosis that too much consumption of the oxylates bound with calcium can lead to renal failure- which can be known as an issue with chameleons in captivity (ould there be a link) i guess it a risk upto the individual keeper to make, like not having a thermostat to stop your cham burning itself.are we sure its not doing harm allowing it eat it guess that's why it is still an ongoing debate . Think I'll stay on the side of for non plant eating species only. But ive never kept a veiled and i certainly haven't done experiments on them to draw my conclusion
@Pickle-cham ...all I can tell you is that my female veileds used to strip every pothos bare and they lived to be at least 6 and almost always over 7 years of age....the autopsies never showed that they died with renal failure.
