Veiled Fetus *photos*

[royden]

This argument introduces another stopping point in this discussion that there is a difference in opinion on the value of an animals life and a humans life.

I personally believe that humans are far more valuable then animals, that we ourselves are much more then animals, and that we are to passionately take care of the earth and all living things on the earth, but the earth and everything in nature exsists for the purpose of us to grow in knowledge.

 

[SoCaliSon]

First off I want to make clear that by my previous statement was not ment to say that the OP did anything even close to thie lines of killing a person. I was mererly posing a question thats answer directly applies to the point I was trying to make. Was not meant to compare the morality of operating on animals versus humans. I was making the point that in hindsight anything can be looked at and observed for the purpose of learning. We can always learns something by observing the "ends", but a lot of times the "means" should have never happend.

Royden:

This argument introduces another stopping point in this discussion that there is a difference in opinion on the value of an animals life and a humans life.

I personally believe that humans are far more valuable then animals, that we ourselves are much more then animals, and that we are to passionately take care of the earth and all living things on the earth, but the earth and everything in nature exsists for the purpose of us to grow in knowledge.

I have never looked at a difference in oppinion as a stopping point... Instead I see it as an opportunity to learn. I have complete respect for your view on the topic and would never persecute it. Only ask you more about why you feel this way, as I with an opposing view point may not have thought about the same things that you have.... Who knows...You may enlighten me forever; Or we could stop...and pass up the opportunity to gain a little more understanding and exercise a freindly discussion.

I look at it from this standpoint...
Science shows that were animals living a wandering this planet millions of years before humans ever came into existance... I personally believe in the Theory of evolution and that humans are but another animal sharing this planet with many other animals that all play an equally important role in the big picture of life on earth. Us humans have only inhabited but a tiny shred of time in the historic timeline of our planet. Only difference between us humans, and the other animals we liveis that we have evloved bigger more capable brains, but to say that we are more "valuable" than other animals I believe is somewhat of a selfish or self endlugent attitude for us humans to take. Our big brains could prove to be our demise. We all have heard what would happen if something as little as the honeybee were to dissapear... The ecosystem would collapse. If you ask me I am not sure that humans are really valuable at all to life on earth... Seeing all the damage we do. We are the single most destructive animal on the planet... as we are the only animal who is a threat to the planet itself. The Good that we do for our planet is but a speck compared to the destruction we are bringing on this planet. So to apply this to the discussion, I don't believe you can put a "value" on the life of any animal. We see human life as more valuable because we are humans... But if science has showed us anything it is that we should humble ourselves because without the other less "valuable" animals we would not be able survive ourselves. I do agree that we should use our brains to care for the planet, because our life on this planet depends on it, but in order to do that we can not play down the "value" of our fellow animals.

 

[Edward Kim]

I agree with Royden. I personally think the word murder should not be used lightly.

 

[SoCaliSon]

Edward Kim

I agree with Royden. I personally think the word murder should not be used lightly.

You are right... I completely agree... I believe i could have worded it diferrently as to make sure it is not taken out of context... I will edit the post to a more neutural word like "killing". Thank you for pointing that out. I do not consider the a scientific examination on an animal that must be sacrificed as murder... but it is a killing... and we must remain in touch with the fact that in these cases we do kill the animal, for the betterment of the species, but we are taking another animals life and that animal deserves our respect for it's sacrifice.

 

[nightcrawler]

so i have been doing physics all week and look what i missed.
alls i can say is that yes it is sad for the cham that had to die.
we love these animals and i think that is why some people do not want to
hurt them. i understand, i would not do intentional to my cham.
BUT, i am going to be a scientist also (not with animals, just space)
and i understand this totally. i can see why he did this.
i dont see how people dont get anything out of looking at that.
if you dont understand at least what forms or what doesnt form you are
not looking at the pictures. i would of never known that the eyes are
infact that large. if you didnt learn anything then you didnt look at it
in the right frame of mind. you have to look at it like a scientist would,
not like a cham lover. if you look like a scientist you wouldent be saying
anything, you would be asking questions to yourself, and if you are smart
you will answer them.

i hope that chris does that egg stage experiment. i would love to read the
article on it and look at the pictures so show the imagery.
i think it is a shame that they have to die in the process but, by
understanding development then you might be able to develop your
chams better, and in a way that they will be better off.

now i shall ask some questions. i only want scientific answers, if you do not
have one, and your opinion is blocking the science then please refrain from
posting.

when do you classify something is alive?

if you break an egg open, does this induce its birth/hatch?

is it alive if it didnt hatch itself?

are they alive inside the egg, before hatching?

is it murder if it is an animal?

is it still murder in the name of science?why cant you decide to find out if your eggs are good by breaking one open
instead of wasting your time, and adding more stress of eggs into your life?

What was really wrong with what he did?
i dont understand. yes its sad for the cham, but i bet a lot of people
raise their chams in the wrong kind of conditions that will make it more
miserable then this cham was. over supplementing, could cause organ damage
and who knows if that hurts them, when a human drinks a lot the night before
their liver hurts, does it not? we might be doing the same thing to them.
causing them pain. that is why most of you dont like this right? it caused
pain to a little (unhatched) cham.
what about MBD?
i bet that is intensely painful to them, not to mention inhumane to put something
threw such torture.
also what about keeping them confined in a 16 square foot box?
that has to be horrible. no? if you love these animals so much why not
let them live free lives in the wild? why keep them for your enjoyment?
that is pretty inhuman to keep an animal from its natural surroundings? no?

the word inhuman means nothing to me because everything we do, every
mistake, thought, or action is human. everything we do is human.
how can we say something is inhuman if everything we do is human.
its human nature to give feelings to objects, whos to say that this guy did
feel pain anyways.

in closing i would like some of my questions answered in a scientific way,
not personal opinion. enjoy.

 

[SoCaliSon]

nightcrawler:

now i shall ask some questions. i only want scientific answers, if you do not
have one, and your opinion is blocking the science then please refrain from
posting.

I want to respond to your questions but the majority of those topics can only be answered through reference to scientific theory. It is impossible to form any kind of answers to those questions without being oppinionative in nature.

 

[nightcrawler]

I look at it from this standpoint...
Science shows that were animals living a wandering this planet millions of years before humans ever came into existance... I personally believe in the Theory of evolution and that humans are but another animal sharing this planet with many other animals that a selfish or self endlugent attitude for us humans to take. Our big brains could prove to be our demise. We all have heard what would happen if something as little as the honeybee were to dissapear... The ecosystem would collapse. If you ask me I am not sure that humans are really valuable at all to life on earth... Seeing all the damage we do. We are the single most destructive animal on the planet... as we are the only animal who is a threat to the planet itself. The Good that we do for our planet is but a speck compared to the destruction we are bringing on this planet. So to apply this to the discussion, I don't believe you can put a "value" on the life of any animal. We see human life as more valuable because we are humans... But if science has showed us anything it is that we should humble ourselves because without the other less "valuable" animals we would not be able survive ourselves. I do agree that we should use our brains to care for the planet, because our life on this planet depends on it, but in order to do that we can not play down the "value" of our fellow animals.

that is a blunt statement. can one really say that without knowing
everything to do with ecosystems, and scaling it down so everything is matching up?
can anyone really understand enought to make certain that it is a true statement?
we humans do destroy a lot, but most of that destruction is due to the
fact that we are trying to survive. every animals insticts are to survive.
we just have an upperhand by having better brains, and add in the fact
that we are larger then a lot of animals out there(relative to numbers of population)
i dont blame us for having an upperhand on every other animal.
you have to understand that because we are so evolved that that is why
we are more destructive. we have a means for destroying more, more easily. (in a way)

their are plenty of animals that destroy just as much if not more then we do.
for instance, if you look at a flock of locus... they do massive damages to
crops in africa. they destroy acres in hours. think of their body size relative
to the size of the land they destroy. that is massive. think of the numbers
of them too. if you figure all this all play an equally important role in the big picture of life on earth. Us humans have only inhabited but a tiny shred of time in the historic timeline of our planet. Only difference between us humans, and the other animals we liveis that we have evloved bigger more capable brains, but to say that we are more "valuable" than other animals I believe is somewhat of out then i dont think that we would be so bad.
yes the things we do are bad, but if you are a person or an animal that
needs that vegitation to survive they seem like the most horrible destroyer
in the world.

im sure there are plenty of other examples of animals who destroy everything
in their path, but i have to go study. go physics.

 

[SoCaliSon]

Every animal is destructive to a certain level... you are right... But in nature the cons that come from an animals existance are offset by relative benefit of their existance. In the case of the locusts you mention... They may destroy a crop... Which is a nuisance to us because it is our food... But in the natural process that huge swarm of loctus will feed migrate and die off there putting everything that they have taken from the earth... back into in one mass fertilization. Those locusts thrive and serve as food for such a vast population of animals the fact that a farmer lost is really not a real loss to the ecosystem. This is all really basic science that is taught in grade school so I really don't think I need lecture on this stuff. And I really get ticked when we start to play down the negative impact that we are having on our planet. You would have to blind not to see that this mentality that nothing is more important than us is taking a massive toll on our earth. We don't even give our bodies back to the earth as fertilizer. We are plowing down our worlds number one source of oxygen (the rainforest) at a rediculous rate. We have put more animals into extiction or onto the endangered list than any other animal in recorded history. Never before humans was the air quality on our planet so polluted. Humans are takers that are too often times singlemindedly concerned only about comfortably providing means of survival for ourselves that we don't care what is lost in the process. To say that the life of one animal is more valuable than anothers would be like trying to say, In my eyes is the same as saying your life is more valuable than your neighbors. While it does mean more to you... because it is your life... You must remember your neighbor has the same drive for survival you do... and there life is just as valuable to them as yours is to you. We ourselves are animals... Moving, breathing, seeing, feeling, thinking, trying survive... If you think you are more important than any other animal that is moving, breathing, living, feeling, and trying survive, than i say you have a very selfish way of thinking. Just because I have the ability to crush or destroy something just for the hell of it doesn't make me better or more important... It makes me more dangerous. Stephen Hawking, one of the greatest minds of our time, theorizes that the end of the world will not come from a drastic force of nature, or meteor from space... but we will bring our selves down with devices of our own creation.

 

[royden]

I'll disagree with you nightcrawler on a few things and agree with socalison.

Jeez...this thread..I swear I'm just waiting for a mod to shut us down any minute. I'm enjoying the discussion and it is still a shining example of the fresh air that is this forum.

anyways..


Here are the reasons for my opinions that humans are not animals.

Human's are capable of the most unspeakable evil. Most unspeakable. Nothing any animal has ever done can amount to the evil that I (all by myself) have set in motion from a single act of (for instance) not telling the truth.

Human's are also - in the same moment - capable of such goodness and love, that it literally changes the course of the history of the world.

We are capable of destroying the world, or protecting it. No other species on the planet has found itself with this responsibility, and deep down I believe every human feels the weight of that responsibilty. It is the weight of that responsibilty that will cause us to save the baby from the burning buidling before the dog (or the parsonii ) because that single human holds so much possibilty, where the single animal holds so little. Sure, the majority of a species will hold the fabric of an ecosystem in balance and so every individual is valued to an extent - but it doesn't even come close to the power we have as humans; for both unspeakable evil, and unimaginable good works that benefit generations to come.

And yes - our evil is currently outweighing our good work.

Animals will live and die and live and die for billions of years. Humans are going to leave a mark whether we like it or not. It's our responsibilty to learn as much as we can - pass on that knowledge - and hopefully change the mark. Animals are important, but they leave no mark on this planet because they are this planet. They are one of the things we our leaving are mark on.

For us to say that nature is equally as valuable as man is to say that the writers paper is equally as valuable as what he is about to write, and therefore he should be silent.




Good discussion all. Please read my posts with a tone of respect for others, it's in my voice. I care about other's opinions.

 

[SoCaliSon]

Again I am really enjoying discussing these topics and I don't aim to offend anyone... or knock down anyone elses views. Just enjoying the educated discussion. I really feel I am learning a lot... not only from discussing this with you guys.,.. but in typing out my own thought process on the whole matter. Thanks again... and I hope no toes were stepped on.

 

[Justin Carl]

.......
This is sad.
Their are three ways to think.
Pro, con, and dont care.
I fall under "dont care"
You could type the longest post you wanted, but you still wont change minds.
I just dont understand why this thread is going on for this amount of time.
We should make it a poll without a discussion and be done with it.
Beliefs and a mindset wont change.
-Justin

 

[SoCaliSon]

Jeez...this thread..I swear I'm just waiting for a mod to shut us down any minute. I'm enjoying the discussion and it is still a shining example of the fresh air that is this forum.

Please all powerful moderators... Don't end our discussion... I think this serves a great example that people can discuss the touchiest of topics and still remain respectful. This is some of the most valuable time I have ever spent on the internet.

Here are the reasons for my opinions that humans are not animals.

Human's are capable of the most unspeakable evil. Most unspeakable. Nothing any animal has ever done can amount to the evil that I (all by myself) have set in motion from a single act of (for instance) not telling the truth.

Human's are also - in the same moment - capable of such goodness and love, that it literally changes the course of the history of the world.

We are capable of destroying the world, or protecting it. No other species on the planet has found itself with this responsibility, and deep down I believe every human feels the weight of that responsibilty. It is the weight of that responsibilty that will cause us to save the baby from the burning buidling before the dog (or the parsonii ) because that single human holds so much possibilty, where the single animal holds so little. Sure, the majority of a species will hold the fabric of an ecosystem in balance and so every individual is valued to an extent - but it doesn't even come close to the power we have as humans; for both unspeakable evil, and unimaginable good works that benefit generations to come.

And yes - our evil is currently outweighing or good work.

Animals will live and die and live and die for billions of years. Humans are going to leave a mark whether we like it or not. It's our responsibilty to learn as much as we can - pass on that knowledge - and hopefully change the mark. Animals are important, but they leave no mark on this planet because they are this planet. They are one of the things we are leaving are mark in.

For us to say that nature is equally as valuable as man is to say that the writers paper is equally as valuable as what he is about to write, and therefore he should be silent.

That is very interesting... I had never thought about it like that... I see a lot of sense in what you're saying. Thanks for the insight.
I just think that we can't measure man up to nature, becasue man rose from nature. We are only a small part of the picture.

 

[SoCaliSon]

.......
This is sad.
Their are three ways to think.
Pro, con, and dont care.
I fall under "dont care"
You could type the longest post you wanted, but you still wont change minds.
I just dont understand why this thread is going on for this amount of time.
We should make it a poll without a discussion and be done with it.
Beliefs and a mindset wont change.
-Justin

Sad... I think we should be happy that a discussion like this can take place without anyone turning into a total jerk. Are you opposed to all philosophical discussion. I happen to love it incase you can't tell.
Nobody is trying to change anyone elses minds or beliefs. I believe it is beneficial to share your values and beliefs as long as you can reamin respectful of others. I take the time to type out my thinking... in hopes that someone will be interested in discussing their thinking with me. You CAN have an educated discussion with someone without encroahing, disrespecting, pushing, or insulting... believe it or not. What is the problem with discussing these things in such a matter?

 

[SoCaliSon]

Also I think the rating on the thread speaks for itself... I'll say it again... While all the usuall stuff is more than awesome... I think this thread offers a lot more than the typical husbandry discussion that we are all used to.

 

[nightcrawler]

Again I am really enjoying discussing these topics and I don't aim to offend anyone... or knock down anyone elses views. Just enjoying the educated discussion. I really feel I am learning a lot... not only from discussing this with you guys.,.. but in typing out my own thought process on the whole matter. Thanks again... and I hope no toes were stepped on.

yea i agree with you socalison, as long as this is a disscussion and not
an attack i think that it should be allowed and i think that is why it still is going on.
i do enjoy reading all of your posts about this subject because you are the only
opposing side to most of the other posters. thanks for putting up a fight
so to say.

this is nothing more then i do in philosophy class, disscuss your beliefs
and back it up with examples and or ideas. there is nothing wrong going on here
and i dont think it should be shut down. i dont know of anyone who got upset
other then the people who didnt like the pics, or were disturbed by it.
but honestly if you do not like seeing pics of fetus (or dont know what
a fetus is) then you shouldent of came in this thread. if you did know
and you still did and then were disturbed it was your fault for clicking on it,
what were you excpecting?
also if you didnt know and you still clicked on it, then im sorry but you should
be weary of what you click on if you dont know the meaning. if you dont know
something look it up, then decide to go in or not to.

Nothing any animal has ever done can amount to the evil that I (all by myself) have set in motion from a single act of (for instance) not telling the truth.

i think that we give more emotion into everyday things
then animals do. they are only for survival, we are not so much. we have
compassion for our fellow man, but animals usually do not. i dont think
that we can say lieing is worse then anything an animal can do becuase
these kinds of things arent comparable. you cant compare something
that only humans give value towards to an animal who only live on survival.
i think its too drastic of differences to understand both sides.
now dont get me wrong i still think we can be much cruler then animals.
we kill in the name of what? nothing. but i believe that that is becuase
of the values we impose on things that shouldent be imposed on.
we give value to valueless things in the animal life.
granted we have order, but whos to say that we have less order
then an ant or termite colony?

most of the ways that we cause all these problems that are destroying
out planet is due to our ignorence, untill better understanding is found
between out gadgets and us, we really do knot no the outcome of what
is going to happen with them. sure they make life easier, but what people
usually think of the outcome other then gaining more for themselves?
most of the inventions we have were to make life easier, and perduce more
goods or food in a way to make profit. noone usually thinks of the outcome
of these inventions untill many years down the road when they discover
new ideas and understand science more to get to know that what they are
useing is causing problems, and we are stuck on one invention for so long
that we cannot get off useing that one, because we forget how to do things
the old fasioned way.
this is turning into an argument about humans and how we are bad.

 

[Washoe]

I like chris's two cents.

Good discussion socalison!

It’s also quite refreshing to read a legible post written in grammatically correct and properly punctuated English.

 

[Jeweledchameleons]

methinks I'll cut one of the eggs I've got that's running way past due
the others in the clutch hatched 1.5 months ago.
I can't see anything resembling an embryo when candling, it's clear inside.
However, there was some vascularization around the egg but I can't seen any strong shadowing / embryo development.

Thoughts?

 

[chuka1212]

methinks I'll cut one of the eggs I've got that's running way past due
the others in the clutch hatched 1.5 months ago.
I can't see anything resembling an embryo when candling, it's clear inside.
However, there was some vascularization around the egg but I can't seen any strong shadowing / embryo development.

Thoughts?

Oh Boy... cutting another one open... that will be sure to fire up this debate again.

I hadn't kept up on this thread for a week or so but man, I want to congratulate everyone for being so darn polite/levelheaded. I have been a part of other forums where I mentioned that I had to humanely kill a fish and got my head torn off. This is certainly a great credit to all of you and these forums.

This has been a very enlightening discussion. And maybe my background in Biology (a bachelors in Biology) biases me but I couldn't agree more with Chris Anderson's posts...bravo.

 

[SoCaliSon]

methinks I'll cut one of the eggs I've got that's running way past due
the others in the clutch hatched 1.5 months ago.
I can't see anything resembling an embryo when candling, it's clear inside.
However, there was some vascularization around the egg but I can't seen any strong shadowing / embryo development.

Thoughts?

As I learned a few pages back on this post from Chris it was I believe... This far along candling really wouldn't show much even in fertile eggs... How do the eggs appear visibly from the outside? Normally if it is bad is should be obvious so there might be a chance that they could still hatch. Did all the others hatch around the same time?

But IMO if you think that there is any chance that the egg is still fertile you should just wait. No need to kill another one for taking it's time in the egg. Wait for it to show obvious signs of rot... then cut it open.

 

[AFH]

And yes - our evil is currently outweighing our good work.

I don't really agree with this point. I think that evil is brought to attention many many fold more than good. Take the evening news. It's 55 minutes of doom and gloom and one feel good human interest story. I don't think that means that no good was done in the world that day. Aside from occassional huge leaps, good usually happens in constant small doses. That's what offsets the usually singular large acts of evil. You can argue that the world is going to hell in a handbasket. But that's what your parents said, and their parents, and their parents, and so on.

Just my two cents, though I'm not sure what it has to do with someone cutting open a chameleon egg.

P.S. I have enjoyed the mostly level headed discussion here.