Veiled Fetus *photos*
- Thread starter Tyrenlds
- Start date
leolover
New Member
I think after first sight of them infact being fertile, I would have stopped what I was doing.. I think that that chameleon was doomed as soon as you openend the egg. I dont know how you had the heart to dissect that step by step knowing that it was alive and going though all that you were doing! What a terrible death. I can sorta understand curious of fertility, but I think that was just torture for him..... Im sorry for that little guy 
chuka1212
New Member
We cut up all sorts of things for the sake of science... live animals are cut into to see their heart beats, thousands upon thousands of fetal pigs are killed to be dissected, and countless other animals. Many of the miraculous medical procedures we have today are thanks to experiments on animals.
I doubt this gave us a huge insight on anything medical but it was interesting. He said he didn't know if the eggs were still viable and was willing to risk one of his guys dying to find out. They are his chams, he can do what he wants IMO. There are a lot bigger issues we could all be concerned about. Again, just my opinion... and thanks for bringing us those amazing pics!
The thing that I don't understand is why my picture of a necropsy showing parasites was offinsive and deleted and these aren't? I don't personally have a problem with them but I am just confused.
I would have loved to see that pic of the necropsy. Pitty it was deleted.
Anyhow, interesting pics of the veiled. Can I guess at something? - this is your first clutch of chameleon eggs isn't it?
bluegeorge
New Member
Interesting photos...keeping it alive for an hour...cruel
Jeweledchameleons
Avid Member
Even when I was in my highschool adv. biologly classes
we broke chicken eggs and monitored their development all the time
yes, they we're alive and we watched them slowly die in the process.
did I learn by the experience?
yes
and by learning I was enabled to better care for such animals
and even related animals better than not knowing something firsthand
of what goes on inside the shell.
I've taken a few eggs myself and opened them up to monitor what is happening.
it's not cruel (imo)
cruel to me...
is someone that takes pleasure out of the pain and suffering of another.
what I did involved admiration and a need to better understand
what I couldn't gain via candling.
Thank you for sharing the picts.
we broke chicken eggs and monitored their development all the time
yes, they we're alive and we watched them slowly die in the process.
did I learn by the experience?
yes
and by learning I was enabled to better care for such animals
and even related animals better than not knowing something firsthand
of what goes on inside the shell.
I've taken a few eggs myself and opened them up to monitor what is happening.
it's not cruel (imo)
cruel to me...
is someone that takes pleasure out of the pain and suffering of another.
what I did involved admiration and a need to better understand
what I couldn't gain via candling.
Thank you for sharing the picts.
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
I wouldn't open one up to look at it, unless I was sure it was dead. I don't see it as cruel, but I wouldn't advise openign an egg out of curiosity, unless I were in a class or something with some sort of goal.
Dr. Black's "Developmental Anatomy and Histology" class... Dr. Black must have HATED chickens, I swear. hehe.
Dr. Black's "Developmental Anatomy and Histology" class... Dr. Black must have HATED chickens, I swear. hehe.
CarolenRunsen
New Member
For a forum filled with people who love chameleons I am very suprised that there are so many of you who think this experiment was interesting. I would have expected everyone to be absolutly appaulled by these photo's. . .
Jeweledchameleons
Avid Member
Well there's a difference between learning via observation and not.
It's clear that at this stage the skin hasn't developed enough for pigmentation
I believe that there's some level of activity there the eye's are not "open"
they are actually developing and the eyelids are transparent.
But I theorize that the brain hasn't awakened and that the metabolism
is kept slow and low.
The one I opened up was about two weeks from it's hatch
the young had consumed the majority of it's yoke supply, well developed
pigmented and although immobile it responded to stimuli with color change.
I would have loved to have kept it alive but I deemed that it was more
humane to put it down before it suffered.
It's clear that at this stage the skin hasn't developed enough for pigmentation
I believe that there's some level of activity there the eye's are not "open"
they are actually developing and the eyelids are transparent.
But I theorize that the brain hasn't awakened and that the metabolism
is kept slow and low.
The one I opened up was about two weeks from it's hatch
the young had consumed the majority of it's yoke supply, well developed
pigmented and although immobile it responded to stimuli with color change.
I would have loved to have kept it alive but I deemed that it was more
humane to put it down before it suffered.
AFH
Avid Member
There's a difference between finding an experiment interesting, whether you agree with it not, and being unsympathetic. I don't think anyone here didn't feel bad about the fate of the poor baby, but it is still very informative about what happens in the egg.
xoiceox
New Member
Ok so here's the thing... I know animals are killed for science, but that does not make it right. I am a strong animal rights activist and care for the well being and life of all animals. I do not care if it was HIS egg...I still think it was wrong to take a life unless the egg was like rotting. But that's just me backing up what I said before. Everyone is allowed to have their views and opinions, mine on this subject is one of remorse and a lil anger... But whats done is done and the poor lil guy lost his life for no good reason... And if u find that amusing in pictures... I'm sorry to hear it
As one guy said before me... This is a site of people who love and dedicate their lives to caring for chameleons and it sux that u think cutting one open and it dying isn't a big deal.
*sigh*
SoCaliSon
Avid Member
I am not sure I see what you are saying??? From what I see the entire head and it's features appear pretty developed. You can make out the entire face and the eye turrets seem complete. I am not saying your wrong... But I always thought that the turrets were it's eyelids. When I see my Chammy close her eyes I don't see a seperate eyelid from the turret... It just appears that she squeezed her little round eye opening shut. Im confused that looks like an open chameleon eye if I ever seen one.
SoCaliSon
Avid Member
And just for the sake of the topic... I did find the pics pretty sad. I view my herps... even their eggs... as my babies... and would never experiement or disect one, unless it was already dead... And I would have to be pretty stummped on COD to perform a necropsy anyway.
I accept the fact that science calls for things like this to happen... But IMO if you don't have a degree and aren't participating in somekind of organized educational course, then you have no buisness performing experiements on live subjects. There is already documented research that has been done by reptuable people... If you wanted to know you could have looked into it without killing an animal on your own. Animals have already died for that purpose... No need for everyone else to follow suit... That is needless death. I know we all like think of ourselves as scientist to a certain level... but don't build yourself up... especially when it comes to working with live animals..Leave the science up to the actual scientist... We have no right to take animals lives for the sake of our own curiosity, especially when your questions have already been answered by actual reputable scientists.
I accept the fact that science calls for things like this to happen... But IMO if you don't have a degree and aren't participating in somekind of organized educational course, then you have no buisness performing experiements on live subjects. There is already documented research that has been done by reptuable people... If you wanted to know you could have looked into it without killing an animal on your own. Animals have already died for that purpose... No need for everyone else to follow suit... That is needless death. I know we all like think of ourselves as scientist to a certain level... but don't build yourself up... especially when it comes to working with live animals..Leave the science up to the actual scientist... We have no right to take animals lives for the sake of our own curiosity, especially when your questions have already been answered by actual reputable scientists.
xoiceox
New Member
SoCaliSon
Avid Member
Thanks So Much... And to the OP: Those images have been sticking with me since I first saw them this morning... And there is one thing I can't get past... You thought it was infertile... So you cut it open... Found out it was Alive!... But it's obviously too late to save it's life... Here is what I don't understand... You've just realized you've accidentally opened a fertile cham egg and therefore this living little one will not make it... WHAT is the purpose of letting him suffer for an hour??? End the suffering... then worry about whatever it is you felt you needed to open the egg for in the first place.
chelshart25
New Member
just out of curiousity what do you feel you learned from this experiment that has never been discovered before? Was it worth killing an innocent animal for something you could have figured out over the internet? I understand you may not have known if they were fertile or not but unless you bought the chameleon gravid, you would know if shes been around a male....and ontop of that, even if she was gravid you should know the gestation period of the egg can be up to 10 or 11 months so wouldnt it be worth waiting to see if they hatch then or see if the eggs rot in the mean time instead of opening it at only 5 months? Like other people have said before me, if you did open the egg and found a baby why let him suffer? You already took his life, atleast be generous enough to take it in peace. How would you like to be on your death bed in pain and have someone poking and prauding at you?
I feel sorry for the little guy!
I feel sorry for the little guy!
Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
Absolutly no offense to you xoiceox, but you are an animal rights activist, and your opinion is based on a different set of beliefs than many other people. I will not try to refute them, as you are entitled to your beliefs.
That said, with you being as such, it would be senseless to try to convince you that the operation would be justified.
For instance, if someone were the opposite: A person who simply believes that animals have NO rights, no feelings, and just flat out felt we can do with them what we wish... well, there'd be no point in trying to discuss any ethical issues with regard to animals.
It's a philosophical disagreement.
I see nothing morally wrong with doing such things for scientific reasons. To a point. I don't like the idea of opening up an animal's egg "out of curiosity". just to see what it looks like inside.
In my opinion, science is best restrained with morality. When you start using science for personal gains (curiosity, "let's see what I can do wiht this...", cloning human/jellyfish hybrids just so see ifou can make'em glow in da dark, or simply creating a monkey wiht 5 a$$es), it gets into a shady area, a very narrow path, where you make one step too far away from you path and you get into "evil" territory... then it's not justifable.
In a classroom setting, or even if you had a defined goal to looking in the eggs, then it is fine in my opinion. But for simple curiosity, I woudlnt' do anything "painful".
while we can't compare the death of an animal to that of a person, you still have to be responsible. While aniamls are not people, people ARE animals too. gotta keep that in mind when you go prodding and cutting.
That said, with you being as such, it would be senseless to try to convince you that the operation would be justified.
For instance, if someone were the opposite: A person who simply believes that animals have NO rights, no feelings, and just flat out felt we can do with them what we wish... well, there'd be no point in trying to discuss any ethical issues with regard to animals.
It's a philosophical disagreement.
I see nothing morally wrong with doing such things for scientific reasons. To a point. I don't like the idea of opening up an animal's egg "out of curiosity". just to see what it looks like inside.
In my opinion, science is best restrained with morality. When you start using science for personal gains (curiosity, "let's see what I can do wiht this...", cloning human/jellyfish hybrids just so see ifou can make'em glow in da dark, or simply creating a monkey wiht 5 a$$es), it gets into a shady area, a very narrow path, where you make one step too far away from you path and you get into "evil" territory... then it's not justifable.
In a classroom setting, or even if you had a defined goal to looking in the eggs, then it is fine in my opinion. But for simple curiosity, I woudlnt' do anything "painful".
while we can't compare the death of an animal to that of a person, you still have to be responsible. While aniamls are not people, people ARE animals too. gotta keep that in mind when you go prodding and cutting.
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CammieNLeno
New Member
Please for the love of god tell me you are a vegitarian
dodolah
Retired Moderator
wow.. i'm a bit late in this.
At first the pics are very interesting to see. Yet, i too find it a bit disturbing.
I can't justify cutting fetuses open for sole curiosity, sorry.
isn't there another way to find out whether the eggs are viable or not without cutting one open?
But, a very interesting pic nonetheless.
I feel sorry for the guy
At first the pics are very interesting to see. Yet, i too find it a bit disturbing.
I can't justify cutting fetuses open for sole curiosity, sorry.
isn't there another way to find out whether the eggs are viable or not without cutting one open?
But, a very interesting pic nonetheless.
I feel sorry for the guy
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