Veiled Chameleon Help

[Rae-Button]

Hi! I'm just asking for some advice as I'm really attached and I don't know what to do anymore.

August 2019: My female had a prolapse, learned she had eggs but weren't ready to come out as they weren't calcified. Got prescribed pure calcium and ADE.

November 2019: She laid 54 eggs, went for x-rays to make sure they were all gone. The vet could see she immediately was making a new clutch. Was gasping and had a bit of whistle to it, as if something was pushing on lungs.

It's been a very sad and worrisome adventure since then, she is still getting pure calcium and ADE as it was suggested. Since November, she has developed a gasp/whistle, and I've have found its pain related so she's been on pain meds (since November). December and January it was horrible, it was every 1-2 minutes, and gasping. All Feburary 2020, she didn't need any, beginning of March it was off/on but now I have to give it every two days, and it takes two days just for it to kick in to where she is back to "normal" and not gasping. The whistling isn't as bad but when its night time its horrifying to hear her gasping away. The only way I can describe it is as if you were done choking but still trying to force in air.

I'm thinking of going to the vet to get x-rays for the 5th time to see if these eggs are ready and she's not immediately making another clutch. With everything going on though my vets office is completely booked until June, and I don't have enough pain meds to last till then if needed.

I guess my question is, is what I'm doing wrong (trying to save her)? And what would you do in this situation? What's the best solution for this besides surgery?

 

[Mrjamwin]

Does she have a lay bin to go to lay her eggs?

 

[Rae-Button]

Does she have a lay bin to go to lay her eggs?

I have recently made one yes. My fear is she has the eggs stuck in the wrong place again, or that she's having two clutches in her stomach at the moment (like last time) as she just keeps getting bigger and bigger (she doesn't eat a crazy amount)

 

[kinyonga]

Is the lay bin in her cage?

Please post some recent photos of her and her cage and answer the questions in the following thread as specifically as possible...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/how-to-ask-for-help.66/

 

[Rae-Button]

Is the lay bin in her cage?

Please post some recent photos of her and her cage and answer the questions in the following thread as specifically as possible...
https://www.chameleonforums.com/threads/how-to-ask-for-help.66/

The lay bin is not in the cage no, and I don't have a photo of it as I'm not home. But here is photos of her and her cage. I know I dont have enough hiding places but as I said she is scared of new plants.

 

[Rae-Button]

Chameleon Info:

Your Chameleon -
Veiled Chameleon, Female, 1 year old. Shes been in my care since she was 7 days old

Handling -
Everyday typically, lately shes a bit moody so maybe every other day.

Feeding -
Crickets, most of the crickets I get at the pet store are small so 7-8. Everyday at noon. I feed them apples and calcium food.

Supplements -
Exo Terra Multi Vitamin two times a month
ZooMed Repti Cal no D3 everyday

Watering -
Water her by hand when needed for a couple minutes. My chameleon has to be forced to drink so yes.

Fecal Description -
Pee is white slightly yellow and poo is fine. No she hasn't been tested

History -
Everything is above. Prolapse and egg issues (egg binding)


Cage Info:

Cage Type -
Glass with screen lid. I'm not sure what the dimensions are but she has a very wide and tall cage.

Lighting -
I use Flukers or ZooMed lights (basking and UVB)
7:30am-7:30pm UVB
7:30am-9:00pm Basking

Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
Cage floor should be around 60°F, Basking is around 85°F. Lowest temp is probably 58-60°F. I have digital and one stick in the middle of the cage.

Humidity -
Humidity stays around 50-60. I spray when needed and make sure not to go overboard. I have a Thermometer/humidity checker inside cage.

Plants -
All fake plants as she is scared of new and real plants. It took me months for her to be okay with one new thing of leaves.

Placement -
On top of my dresser, no vents, fans or high traffic. Probably about 6feet or higher?

Location -
Alberta Canada

Current Problem -
Unsure of what to do. My vet highly recommends to put her down as she seemed to get better than worse. I'm just very attached to her so I dont want to do that and I just wanted some advice of what someone else might do.

 

[Mrjamwin]

What's in her laybin? Is there soil in there and if so how deep is it?

 

[Rae-Button]

What's in her laybin? Is there soil in there and if so how deep is it?

It's soil/sand, someone said that'd be better. It's like 15" deep. She also digs in her cage.

 

[Mrjamwin]

Alright, one more questions what are the dimensions of the lay bin?

 

[Rae-Button]

What's in her laybin? Is there soil in there and if so how deep is it?

I got two one is 16x16x16 and the other I got is 18x13x12

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."My fear is she has the eggs stuck in the wrong place again"...what is the wrong place?

She laid the last clutch in November didn't she? Did she dig a hole and lay them in it and bury them?

There should be a proper lay bin in the cage win female veileds at all times. I use an opaque container at least 12" X 9" X 10" ...but bigger is better. I fill it with washed playsand that is moist enough to hold a tunnel.

I feed/gutload the crickets, roaches, superworms, etc with dandelions, kale, endive, escarole, collards, squash, sweet red pepper, sweet potato, carrots, etc and a bit of fruit such as pears, apples, melon, papaya, mango, berries.

Does you vitamin supplement have any D3 in it?

You shouldn't have to force her to drink. Try misting her longer and do not spray it at her face. I would recommend a dripper too. It can be a deli cup with a tiny hole in the bottom of it so it drips at the rate of one or two drips per second.

With veileds I recommend using real nontoxic well washed (both sides of the leaves) plants because veileds munch on plants at times.

Now...your female is very gravid and I hope she's not eggbound but I'm thinking she could be. Also, if she's gasping, it could very well be because she's so full of eggs that her lungs are being squishes ...and maybe some of her organs too. She may need to be spayed.

I think I told you before...after she laid the last clutch that you needed to cut her feeding back so she wouldn't produce another huge clutch. Also her basking temperature could be lowered a couple of degrees to help slow her metabolism.

If not kept properly veiled females will constantly be working on another clutch.

If she shows signs of decline she will need the surgery before she gets too weak to survive it. Some of the signs are sitting low in the cage, sleeping during the days, lethargy, etc.

Has she done any digging lately at all?

 

[Rae-Button]

I'm not 100% sure, all I know is the eggs were too high up in her stomach for her to lay them in the beginning.

She dug many holes for two week maybe longer, then went up to the light at night, then laid them from there, no burying them. Just from the top of the cage.

I don't think it has D3, I was told they didn't need it. But I am giving her ADE two times a month which has vitamin D.

She won't drink from anything, I spent $300 on various misters etc. None of it works but using a syringe to make her drink.

I'll see if I can get some real branches in there but leaves etc. will be hard as I have no plants but aloe vera.

She has always been that colour, even since a baby. Maybe no blue though. I have a feeling its definitely pushing on her lungs which is why I'm unsure of what to do because that not how I want her living. My vet isn't confident he can do the surgery without killing her.

Im working on slowing changing that, its quite cold here and stores are closed.

She was digging a couple days ago in two spots but she's loving to bask at the moment.

 

[Rae-Button]

Here's what she looked like when she was younger

 

[kinyonga]

I'm not 100% sure, all I know is the eggs were too high up in her stomach for her to lay them in the beginning.
the eggs start out as follicles that are high up in the abdomen and they look like a bunch of grapes and are round. They then ovulate and move into two rows and become oval and shelled and easier to see in an X-ray...and will be lower down in the abdomen.

She dug many holes for two week maybe longer, then went up to the light at night, then laid them from there, no burying them. Just from the top of the cage.
So she dropped the eggs from the branches? That's not a good sign.
It either means she's having difficulty laying them or she doesn't like the laying site.

I don't think it has D3, I was told they didn't need it. But I am giving her ADE two times a month which has vitamin D.
What form of vitamin A is in the vitamin powder? In the ADE? I'm looking for words like beta carotene, retinol, retinyl, etc.
Can you post a photo of the ADE container please?

She won't drink from anything, I spent $300 on various misters etc. None of it works but using a syringe to make her drink.
If the misting session isn't long enough she won't likely drink.
That's why I suggested the dripper. You should not be having to force her.

I'll see if I can get some real branches in there but leaves etc. will be hard as I have no plants but aloe vera.
pothos, ficus, schefflera, hibiscus, etc are all good.

She has always been that colour, even since a baby. Maybe no blue though. I have a feeling its definitely pushing on her lungs which is why I'm unsure of what to do because that not how I want her living. My vet isn't confident he can do the surgery without killing her.
If she can't lay the eggs there is only one alternative and that's the surgery (unless you want to put her down or give her to a rescue).

Im working on slowing changing that, its quite cold here and stores are closed.
You're working on what?

She was digging a couple days ago in two spots but she's loving to bask at the moment.
She needs to dig and lay the eggs in a proper laybin. There's
only so long that her hormones will tell her to dig and lay...after that she will be eggbound.

 

[Rae-Button]

Yeah. I think they're close though because I can see an egg imprint right at her back leg like last time before she laid eggs.

Yes, she laid them from a branch, she spent probably three hours that night Nov2019 before I stopped hearing the eggs hit the substrate.

I'm not sure, I couldn't find what's in the multi vitamin. The ADE bottle has nothing written on it as it was from the vet's office. I can still send a photo though if you'd like.

If I go with the surgery I will be looking into different vets and mine isn't confident in her living at all.

I'm working on cutting back feed and changing her basking area. Surry for not specifying.

I know, I truly do. That's what happened last time, she lost the hormones and didn't have enough calcium for herself and the eggs which lead to her holding the eggs in for so long. I was just lucky she got the hormones back to push them all out. I'm really trying to not let it happen this time, when she is in the cage I have a blanket covering and when shes in her bin I close the door.

 

[kinyonga]

Yeah. I think they're close though because I can see an egg imprint right at her back leg like last time before she laid eggs.

Yes, she laid them from a branch, she spent probably three hours that night Nov2019 before I stopped hearing the eggs hit the substrate.

I'm not sure, I couldn't find what's in the multi vitamin. The ADE bottle has nothing written on it as it was from the vet's office. I can still send a photo though if you'd like. Can you post a photo of the ingredients in the vitamin powder and the ADE please.

If I go with the surgery I will be looking into different vets and mine isn't confident in her living at all. you need a good chameleon vet.

I'm working on cutting back feed and changing her basking area. Surry for not specifying. now is not the time to cut her back. I would recommend you do it starting a day or two after she lays the eggs.

I know, I truly do. That's what happened last time, she lost the hormones and didn't have enough calcium for herself and the eggs which lead to her holding the eggs in for so long. I was just lucky she got the hormones back to push them all out. I'm really trying to not let it happen this time, when she is in the cage I have a blanket covering and when shes in her bin I close the door. Are you moving her back and forth to the bin? If so don't. If the bin is in her cage she should have a way to get into it on her own and if it's a large bin outside the cage then she should be left in it and it should have heat and light. Also, when she's gravid like this you shouldn't be handling her at all unless it's absolutely necessary.

 

[Rae-Button]

Can you post a photo of the ingredients in the vitamin powder and the ADE please.
-I'll try too.

you need a good chameleon vet.
-there isn't any in my area, but I'm searching. Thanks

now is not the time to cut her back. I would recommend you do it starting a day or two after she lays the eggs.
-She is slowing down on how much she eats so I put in a little less.

Are you moving her back and forth to the bin? If so don't. If the bin is in her cage she should have a way to get into it on her own and if it's a large bin outside the cage then she should be left in it and it should have heat and light. Also, when she's gravid like this you shouldn't be handling her at all unless it's absolutely necessary.
-No, I'm not moving her, I have it set up where when my door is closed I have vines and leaves leading to the bigger bin. She kinda switches back and forth throughout the day.

 

[kinyonga]

She needs to be able to get to the laybin whenever she wants to...not just when your door is open.

 

[Rae-Button]

Okay, I'll fix that, thank you.
Here is the ingredients for my Multi Vitamin and a photo of the ADE Solution:
Ingredients:
Dried seaweed meal, dried yeast, oyster shell flour, dextrose, beta-carotene, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of vitamin K activity), biotin, inositol, choline chloride, salt, calcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, potassium chloride, manganese oxide, ferrous fumarate, calcium sulfate, manganous oxide, zinc oxide, copper sulfate, potassium iodate.

Guaranteed Analysis:

Crude Protein (min)	14.0%	Copper	2.5 ppm
Crude Fat (min)	1.2%	Zinc	6.5 ppm
Crude Fiber (max)	8.0%	Iodine	0.75 ppm
Moisture (max)	12.0%	Manganese	6.5 ppm
Ash (max)	9.0%	Choline	81.44 mg/lb
Calcium (min)	4.4%	Menadione	0.907 mg/lb
Calcium (max)	4.6%	Biotin	0.004 mg/lb
Salt (max)	0.00275%	Inositol	4.989 mg/lb
Potassium (min)	0.0033%	Beta Carotene	4.082 mg/lb
Sulfur (min)	0.011%	Vitamin D3	9,979 IU/lb
Magnesium	2 ppm	Vitamin E	45.3 IU/lb
Iron	77 ppm

 

[Rae-Button]

Hi everyone who has suggested things and helped.

Button has been getting worse over these couple days. She's dark, doesn't want to move at all, and is back to sounding like she did in November and slowly getting worse everyday. The metacam doesn't work for her anymore and I've given it to her everyday now for 10 days.

My vet doesn't believe she'll make it the next couple of days.

Thank you all for trying to help me.