URI?

[cyberlocc]

Hey guys I was wondering what the symptoms of a URI are? Or if they include not eating much.

So My cham I thought was out of the woods, as he seemed to begin eating (he is albeit not much). However he seems to have taken a turn for the worse, he is closing his eyes again like he was when I first got him.
So my help questionnaire.

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - Furcifer Pardalis, ⚥, 2-3 months, 3 weeks
• Handling - Not much, I have maybe 4 or 5 times since I have gotten him, only when needed.
• Feeding - Superworms, Buffalo Beetles, Crickets, Dubia, and FFs. He has eaten a few Crickets, Dubia, and BBs, and Superworms, he seems to eat 4-5 supers every few days. Everyday, though he doesn't eat everyday, I put them in in the morning and take them out at night. A veggie Ice Cube blend, with a bunch of different veggies and spirulina and bee pollen.
• Supplements - Calcium zoomed without D3 Every feeding, Reptivite every 2 weeks (Have done twice since being with me, though he hasn't eaten anything dusted with it the second time yet.)
• Watering - Promist Misting system, 1 time 30 mins after lights on for 3 mins, 3 hours later 5 mins, 3 hours later 5 mins, 3 hours later 3 mins (then 2.5 hours till lights off). Have not seen him drink lately.
• Fecal Description - Brown with White urates, No fecal done yet.
• History - When I first got him he was having issues. He was closing his eyes alot his poop was bright orange, and would not eat. Since then, he began to eat some, stopped closing his eyes (or at least I didn't see him, but I have not been watching him as closely due to stress being the possible cause) His urates are now white, but it seems the eye thing is back/never stopped.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Cage is wood frame, 3 sides screen back is acrylic, 1 side is blocked by a blackout drape, as is the door at night.
• Lighting - House bulb 60 watt for basking. Zoomed 5.0 UVB, (coil type), schedule is 8am to 8pm.
• Temperature - 68-72 floor, 80-84 basking, Lowest overnight was 62, Digital thermometers.
• Humidity - Not sure no guage yet, keep meaning to get one. A live ficus and a live pothos in the enclosure, 2 sides blocked off. With the misting and the plants I would guess its high.
• Plants - Ficus, Pothos
• Placement - Bedroom, 10 feet from the swamp cooler vent, and 13 feet from heater vent. Low/Moderate Traffic, about 6 feet.
• Location - Mountains in Arizona

Current Problem -
So the current problem I am not sure if is the same problem or a new one anyway here we go.
He eats but not very much and not every day, a few superworms every other day. Yesterday I saw him like gaping while basking, he had a string of saliva coming from the top of his mouth to the bottom.

I thought maybe it was just that saliva, and wanted to see if the eyes closing persisted well it did. He seems to only close his eyes or fall asleep while he is basking. However I caught him doing it a few times today, I kinda smack the side of the cage door and he looks at me. He still seems fairly active, usually he is trying to get on the top screen of the cage. He ate 3 supers 2 days ago and nothing since. I cannot get him to open his mouth for the life of me to see if there is mucus. He has been like that for awhile always refusing to open his mouth. I have tried rubbing food against his mouth ect nothing.

Do you guys think that is an URI? If so how should I approach it? I have been reading up on URIs for the last few hours and I am still unsure, he did seem to open his mouth a bunch yesterday. But I didn't hear any coughing or popping or anything. I watched him closely today and didn't see him do any of that but he does seem to fall asleep basking (or close his eyes).

I seen suggested in what I seen, to raise his temps so I did that for the last 1.5 hours up to 88. And planned to raise them tomorrow, I also ordered some Reptaid as I read whatever is wrong that could help. There is only 1 vet here that treats reptiles at all, I called them and they are very expensive (they are not a normal vet but an emergency center and its 150 just to see him). They were also honest with me that there experience with chameleons is extremely limited (I took this as None). Its a 5 hour drive to the closest vet (with chameleon EXP), so I would like to avoid that if at all possible.

They said they would see him, but I cant afford that fee till Monday. Which is quite a ways away.

So any ideas? do you think that is a URI? Any tips of how to proceed or what to do until Monday?

 

[cyberlocc]

So here is a poo pic, the flash brings out some pinks that I didn't see, Not sure what that means? That poo is from today though(or yesterday tops, I cleaned well on Monday)

View media item 42652
Not sure if that helps but it cant hurt .

 

[KLowery88]

Hmm. Is he keeping his head elevated or pointed towards the ceiling at all? A lot of mouth opening or mouth breathing could be a sign of URI. Is his basking spot at 88 or just the ambient temp of the top?

 

[cyberlocc]

Hmm. Is he keeping his head elevated or pointed towards the ceiling at all? A lot of mouth opening or mouth breathing could be a sign of URI. Is his basking spot at 88 or just the ambient temp of the top?

He was elevating his head when he was opening his mouth like that. He did that for about 30 secs then shut it, then ran around opening it here and there for a few mins and I haven't seen him open it since. He usually never opens it, he doesn't gape doesn't drink in front of me, I just saw him actually eat for the first time the other day. I seen him eat a cricket when I first got him but he just kinda walked up and grabbed it lol, however Monday I caught him eating a few supers. I had to hide under a blanket on the bed to see that lol. I think s/he is shy.

The rest of the today that he was basking, no he wasn't pointing his head up at all, he was basking like normal except for closing his eyes. His tail isn't curled when he closes his eyes like he does at night for sleep.

His basking temp and Ambient were 88 (where he basks, the thermometer is about 3 inches away from where he basks, to the right on the same branch), however it is not normally that high. He did actually go up to his basking spot and bask more after I raised the temp, I have never seen him do that. He normally basks 2-3 hours in the early afternoon and that is it the rest of the day he is other places exploring, usually mid cage. But when I raised the temps he went up there and stayed for about little over an hour or so, then went down to go to sleep on his ficus same spot every night (it was about 6:50 when he did that which is usually around when he tucks in, doesn't sleep yet just chills in his sleep spot for a bit).

 

[KLowery88]

Closing his eyes during the day is definitely a sign that something is up. Judging from his urate he looks well hydrated at least.

How is the brightness in the cage? Sometime if it's too dim they sort of slow down.

I'm not sure how big your cage is, but I'd leave the basking spot hotter if he's wanting to use it. He obviously feels that he needs to up his temperature.

 

[cyberlocc]

Closing his eyes during the day is definitely a sign that something is up. Judging from his urate he looks well hydrated at least.

How is the brightness in the cage? Sometime if it's too dim they sort of slow down.

I'm not sure how big your cage is, but I'd leave the basking spot hotter if he's wanting to use it. He obviously feels that he needs to up his temperature.

Ya he seems to never like his basking spot, He will bask for an hour or 2 then he starts to climb the screen and try to get ot the top screen. He has done it a few times I caught him right under the light, I have no clue how he did it but he did twice. The screen is on the outside of the frame and the frame is 2x2s and he is not big enough to stretch across them. He really wants up there though. So I guess 80-84 is not enough for him?

I was raising the temp as it was suggested in case its a URI, in other threads about URIs thats why I did that. I planned on keeping him at least 80 at night too, and not closing his front door drape. Also like I said ordered reptaid, no idea if that stuff is snake oil or what but I seen people praising it so we will see.

 

[KLowery88]

If he's feeling too cold, he might be trying to search out somewhere warmer. When I got my Veiled I offered him a spot in the low 90s right away and he has always used it, from when he was the size of my thumb. Of course I also housed him in a 24x24x48 right off the bat, so he had plenty of room to choose his temperature. I'd just make sure the ambient temp isn't raised too much as well and let him have at it.

 

[cyberlocc]

If he's feeling too cold, he might be trying to search out somewhere warmer. When I got my Veiled I offered him a spot in the low 90s right away and he has always used it, from when he was the size of my thumb. Of course I also housed him in a 24x24x48 right off the bat, so he had plenty of room to choose his temperature. I'd just make sure the ambient temp isn't raised too much as well and let him have at it.

Well mine is 35 inches tall, but he has 2 huge plants in there so its pretty shady the temp should vary okay.

Oh and to the brightness, its pretty bright. I think I have some LEDS around here somewhere I will try adding those and see if that helps at all.

 

[KLowery88]

Yeah I think he'll be fine. I'd just keep a close eye on his breathing and behavior. You don't want to let a URI get out of hand and spread to other bits like the eyes. If he's going through the beginning stages, higher temps might let him handle it, but being so young I'd err on the side of caution and get him to a vet if you think he's going downhill.

Hopefully some more experienced members will chime in with their advice.

 

[cyberlocc]

Hopefully some more experienced members will chime in with their advice.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I think he'll be fine. I'd just keep a close eye on his breathing and behavior. You don't want to let a URI get out of hand and spread to other bits like the eyes. If he's going through the beginning stages, higher temps might let him handle it, but being so young I'd err on the side of caution and get him to a vet if you think he's going downhill.

Hopefully some more experienced members will chime in with their advice.

So one worry I have about the vet is from everything I have found they will prescribe Baytril, and at his age he likely cant handle Baytril. I dont know and have no experience with a URI in a reptile nor Baytril so this is all new to me.

I kept snakes years ago, but never had anything like this happen .

I have seen a lot of threads here talking about using Reptaid for this, I ordered some hopefully it gets here Saturday. There was a big time breeder (forget who it was now, EDIT: Chameleons Northwest). Who said they have cured URIs with it many times.

IDK it may work they claim it does as does raising temps. It has olive leaf which is used as a cold relief, as well as a anti bacterial.

A URI is just the common cold just like humans get, so it cant be that hard to cure can it? If he has a LRI (Pneumonia) that is a bird of a different color.

I do have a question if any experts chime in on this, or an idea really.

What about a hot steamy shower, or humidifier. Not putting him in the water just a hot steamy room. I have seen people use the baytrail like that and on YouTube cold medicine for people with snakes. Its just a common cold, and that always works for me when I have a cold.

 

[KLowery88]

URIs on their own aren't a death sentence or anything. They aren't exactly the same as a cold though. In reptiles, I think URIs are a bacterial infection, rather than a viral one like our common cold, due to improper temps/humidity (any experts feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

I think your best bet is upping the temps. I don't have much experience with Reptaid. I tried using it on my rescue Veiled, but he was so far gone with other health issues, so it didn't really help. Try that and see how he does, but just be careful. You don't want the URI turning into pneumonia. It took a long time for a blue tongue skink I rescued with pneumonia to recover.

 

[cyberlocc]

URIs on their own aren't a death sentence or anything. They aren't exactly the same as a cold though. In reptiles, I think URIs are a bacterial infection, rather than a viral one like our common cold, due to improper temps/humidity (any experts feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

I think your best bet is upping the temps. I don't have much experience with Reptaid. I tried using it on my rescue Veiled, but he was so far gone with other health issues, so it didn't really help. Try that and see how he does, but just be careful. You don't want the URI turning into pneumonia. It took a long time for a blue tongue skink I rescued with pneumonia to recover.

Well ours are both, as are the reptiles from what I have been reading. It can be viral or it can be bacterial but "a cold" is just slang for a URI, that was what I meant .


I upped the temps and have that stuff coming, I been reading alot about it. I am going to try to get him to take it when it gets here, but for now I just raised the temps.

 

[Carlton]

Hopefully some more experienced members will chime in with their advice.

So one worry I have about the vet is from everything I have found they will prescribe Baytril, and at his age he likely cant handle Baytril. I dont know and have no experience with a URI in a reptile nor Baytril so this is all new to me.

I kept snakes years ago, but never had anything like this happen .

I have seen a lot of threads here talking about using Reptaid for this, I ordered some hopefully it gets here Saturday. There was a big time breeder (forget who it was now, EDIT: Chameleons Northwest). Who said they have cured URIs with it many times.

IDK it may work they claim it does as does raising temps. It has olive leaf which is used as a cold relief, as well as a anti bacterial.

A URI is just the common cold just like humans get, so it cant be that hard to cure can it? If he has a LRI (Pneumonia) that is a bird of a different color.

I do have a question if any experts chime in on this, or an idea really.

What about a hot steamy shower, or humidifier. Not putting him in the water just a hot steamy room. I have seen people use the baytrail like that and on YouTube cold medicine for people with snakes. Its just a common cold, and that always works for me when I have a cold.[/QUOTE]
A hot steamy room, vaporizer with an added product like Vicks can help loosen congestion, but it won't necessarily treat the cause of a respiratory INFECTION process. Its more like a symptom reliever. A steamy warm humid room might boost the bacteria count and that's not what you want. Baytril is sort of a default shotgun treatment for non-specific bacterial infections that vets go to. Its broad spectrum and effective, but its not the only nor the best choice out there. They often prescribe it to get some treatment on board while they wait for a bacterial sensitivity culture result to come back. The best approach is to try to identify a specific bacteria that may be causing an infection and selecting the proper med to deal with it. Baytril isn't a complete no-no, but if it is prescribed you need to really hydrate and not inject it anywhere close to the kidneys.

 

[cyberlocc]

So one worry I have about the vet is from everything I have found they will prescribe Baytril, and at his age he likely cant handle Baytril. I dont know and have no experience with a URI in a reptile nor Baytril so this is all new to me.

I kept snakes years ago, but never had anything like this happen .

I have seen a lot of threads here talking about using Reptaid for this, I ordered some hopefully it gets here Saturday. There was a big time breeder (forget who it was now, EDIT: Chameleons Northwest). Who said they have cured URIs with it many times.

IDK it may work they claim it does as does raising temps. It has olive leaf which is used as a cold relief, as well as a anti bacterial.

A URI is just the common cold just like humans get, so it cant be that hard to cure can it? If he has a LRI (Pneumonia) that is a bird of a different color.

I do have a question if any experts chime in on this, or an idea really.

What about a hot steamy shower, or humidifier. Not putting him in the water just a hot steamy room. I have seen people use the baytrail like that and on YouTube cold medicine for people with snakes. Its just a common cold, and that always works for me when I have a cold.
A hot steamy room, vaporizer with an added product like Vicks can help loosen congestion, but it won't necessarily treat the cause of a respiratory INFECTION process. Its more like a symptom reliever. A steamy warm humid room might boost the bacteria count and that's not what you want. Baytril is sort of a default shotgun treatment for non-specific bacterial infections that vets go to. Its broad spectrum and effective, but its not the only nor the best choice out there. They often prescribe it to get some treatment on board while they wait for a bacterial sensitivity culture result to come back. The best approach is to try to identify a specific bacteria that may be causing an infection and selecting the proper med to deal with it. Baytril isn't a complete no-no, but if it is prescribed you need to really hydrate and not inject it anywhere close to the kidneys.

Hey thanks Carlton, I know baytril is a shotgun and not a no no, but from the reading I have done everyone says that a baby on baytril will kill them. They can not handle the baytril at all its too hard on there body. That goes for all the Antibiotics that vets prescribe from what I have been reading here and other places.

Have you ever had a baby successful on Baytril? I am talking about a cham that is less than 3 (like 10-11 weeks) months old. Any experience with reptaid? From what I am seeing that can kill a baby as well, but its a lot better than Baytril.

 

[Carlton]

No, I've never needed to treat such a young baby. It might be hard to pinpoint whether the Baytril itself harmed the baby or the stress/potential injury from force feeding it to one. I suppose vet research would have to determine that and I'm certainly not a vet!.

 

[KLowery88]

If a vet trip turns out to be necessary, I wonder if you could have the vets run the culture before giving Baytril.

 

[cyberlocc]

If a vet trip turns out to be necessary, I wonder if you could have the vets run the culture before giving Baytril.

Well that will depend. I am not sure if the vet here in town will do that. There is a vet that is knowledgeable in Chameleons he is 5 hours away, if I have to go there it will be have to be a 1 time thing. I own a business I cannot just leave for a week, I could leave for a day if absolutely necessary, but 2 I cannot do.

The local vet, is a emergency center not a normal vet. They are the only ones that treat reptiles around here. they have already told me they have no experience with chameleons, but they will see her and do there best.

I am not sure if they can culture or not is the issue? Does an emergency vet do that? It sucks living in a small town . At any rate, the soonest I could get in there is Monday (maybe Tuesday, not sure if they will be open its memorial day).

I have read there is a few other antibiotics that could be used in place of baytril. Also seen a few threads here and deno of Vets telling OPs to use reptaid for there baby as Baytril can easily destroy a babies liver. (not sure if thats true, just what was said, but its the internet lol).

So I guess my game plan is raise temps, Done that, Give Reptaid when it gets here (hopefully Saturday otherwise Tuesday!(not good)). And if signs get worse or dont improve take to vet? If the URI is already killing it, then I guess baytrils chance is better than nothing.

 

[alphakenc]

One thing I need to add for u cyberlocc,fixing an URI is one thing,but the most important thing u need to find is "what is causing the URI problem in the first place??"
Is ur cage near a window?air conditioning??any draft???any unnecessary water source inside ur cage needs to be removed???
Find the real problem that cause the URI ,so u can prevent to happen in the second time,these is my opinion just for u,solve it n u know u can do it!!!

 

[cyberlocc]

So another Question, Do you guys that that the URI can cause los of eating? As that symptom has been present since the day I got him and the sleeping/closing eyes.

I just noticed the mouth string for the first time. And it wasnt much, it was 1 string (barely bigger than a hair) down from the top to the bottom, about midway on his mouth.

 

[KLowery88]

I doubt they would have any issues doing the culture, but I would be nervous about them potentially mishandling the little guy in the process of getting the sample. Could they or the other vet be willing to collaborate over phone? The antibiotic I've used most is Ceftazidime, so you could bring that up as perhaps another option. I'm not a vet, so I don't know that there would be any reason to use Baytril over Ceftazidime.

I'd agree with your current plan and see how he does.