Types of panthers

Jewel

New Member
Ok this is a really stupid question but I am confused, which doesn't take much some days. There are so many different types of panthers, example: Nosy Be, Ambanja, Maroansetra etc. Ok now what confuses me do they get their name from the colour they are, type they are or where they are from. The more I read the more confused I get. Also can you breed two different kinds of panthers together or do they have to be the same example do you have to breed a nosy be with a nosy be and a ambanja with a ambanja or can you breed a nosy be with a ambanja.
 

Brian S

New Member
Jenna's standpont is what i believe. Not only are these animals miracles of nature themselves (eyes, tounge, body shape, color, and hands/feet) but how widely yet consistently they very, because of their location, is a miracle in and of itself.

This may sound odd, but think about it. You have bright blue Nosy Be's, yet at the other end of the specturm you have pink Ankarmy. They posess the SAME genetic make up, but Every Single Ankarmy is pink, and EVERY SINGLE Nosy Be is blue. The variations are great, but they are consistant. And that is a true marvel of nature.
 

Heika

New Member
Actually, blue chameleons from the Nose Be region are considered to be an occasional polymorph in wild populations. The more common color is green with blue/dark green barring, striped red eye turrets when displaying, and a portion of the white around the mouth in yellow where the jaws meet. A lot of them have red flecking on their bodies as well.
 

Jewel

New Member
Wow, very interesting links. Ok now I understand where they get their name from and what is meant by "pure". The only reason I asked about cross breeding them is because I have seen several for sale that are cross breed and I didn't know if this was normal or proper breeding. Now I see what harm it can do. Thank you for the help.
 

Brian S

New Member
Jenna did you ever get my e-mail with the pics in it? I'm getting the feeling that it didn't work out right. I'll re-send it.
 

Jewel

New Member
Your site is very informative Jenna, thanks for the link.
I thought chameleons also came from Hawaii.
 

Prism Chameleons

Established Member
You are welcome Jewel and thanks for the compliment! I still have much more information to add, but time just slips away from me with taking care of my chameleons. Some day soon I hope to have a lot more information on my website.

If you have any other questions regarding panthers, please just let me know and shoot me an email. I will be happy to help :) .
 

ydktdborg

New Member
prism i just read loads of info of your site, i just brought 2 panthers and that has answered most of my questions! Thanks
 

Prism Chameleons

Established Member
You're welcome! I'm happy to have been some help and provided you with more information to make you and your new chameleons have a happy and safe home!

Congratulations on your new additions!
 

Kent67

Retired Moderator
Great thread but I've got to play devil's advocate. Not that I specifically like or endorse crossing localities BUT when humans choose which animals are put together to breed (halfway around the world) it is no longer "natural" because neither animal is choosing their mate. If two different locale panthers still recognize each other as potential mates, how can that be against what nature intended? I believe that chameleon owners can do whatever they want with their animals, so long as mixed locality babies are not misrepresented and sold as pure.
I'm awfully confused by the idea that breeding two panthers from different localities is somehow polluting the gene pool. If anything at all, it is making the gene pool more diverse. Pardalis is very variable because of its large range. There are not boundaries where one locale phenotype suddenly changes to another but instead there are intergrades between them. Homo sapiens sapiens is also a wide ranging species with more phenotypic differences than F. pardalis. So, is it also wrong that humans mate with different "localities?" Does that make us sterile? Does it increase or decrease genetic diversity?
Also, the argument that we need to take panther chameleons out of the wild, never returning any to Madagascar, in order to protect them doesn't hold much water. Pardalis is an extremely adaptable species which can be found in backyards, agricultural fields, and other disturbed habitats. The only real threat to its existence in the wild is over-exploitation by the pet trade (i.e. pre-1995 quotas.)
For the record, I once bred an Ambanja male to a female that was sold to me as Ambanja which I doubt she actually was. One of the males that I kept from the clutch lived to be 18 inches long and 7.5 years old. I only bred him a couple times, but he was definitely not sterile. Also, the first panthers I ever produced back in the early 90's were from a Nosy Be X probably east coast somewhere. The first two clutches had 100% hatch and survive. Weak hatchlings? No. In a later clutch they had two sets of twins but none of the twins survived more than a couple weeks. The rest of the babies did, though.
 
Hairfarm, I don't think anyone is doubting that crosses of the first couple generations will be flawless is appearance and behavior wise, but there has been some findings that further generations down the mixed lines are creating instable fertility in both sexes.

I believe that chameleon owners can do whatever they want with their animals, so long as mixed locality babies are not misrepresented and sold as pure.
Unfortunately, some people will tell a thousand lies to make a buck and those that do intend to work with specific colour morphs will always be poisoned by those numerous breeders.
 

Kent67

Retired Moderator
Hairfarm, I don't think anyone is doubting that crosses of the first couple generations will be flawless is appearance and behavior wise, but there has been some findings that further generations down the mixed lines are creating instable fertility in both sexes.
QUOTE]


All I have ever seen regarding this topic has been anecdotal. Can you point me at anything scientific or published or anything? I don't understand how a population would have to continually breed into itself in order not to risk sterility. Limiting available mating partners either in the wild or in captivity greatly increases the probability of inbreeding. The natural variations within each population would tend to support the hypothesis that the opposite is occuring anyway, wouldn't they?
Panther chameleons have a very high reproductive rate. Why? Because most of those that hatch in the wild never make it to breeding. What you have to remember is that the clutches of pardalis that hatch in captivity have a very high, very unnatural survival rate. Many of these animals not only wouldn't survive to adulthood in the wild, but wouldn't pass along their genes either. We don't know which would have been the most fit to survive in the wild (and reproduce) but we artificially create "pairs" of them based on our own tastes or, in a lot of cases, budgets. Multiple generations of artificially selected breedings will risk having inherited problems regardless of whether they are the same locale or not. All animals in the wild have social structures that actively discourage inbreeding and "linebreeding" which many breeders practice. I know if I only saw a couple potential mates in my lifetime, like most captive born chameleons experience, I wouldn't care what they looked like and neither do they.
Look at pure breed dogs vs mutts. Boxers get cancer, sheperds get hip dysplasia, some breeds of terriers have skin and alergy problems, some breeds are really dumb, etc while mixed breed dogs do not suffer from these problems to the same degree.
Panther chameleons need to increase the risk of inbreeding by staying within their natal populations so that they don't go extinct? Sorry, I just can't accept that until I see research evidence....and probably a good proposal that explains why the contradiction works so successfully for them too.
 
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