Action Jackson
Chameleon Enthusiast
Sorry to hear this. Good luck with the others.
Trioceros johnstoni bwindi
- Thread starter biffle
- Start date
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Real sorry to hear about your loss, Jason. Based on the location the vet tried to take the blood sample, I would think twice about bringing her any chameleon in the future. She should have tried to get the caudal vein on the ventral side of the tail posterior to the hemipenes, not lateral at the vent.
Chris
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kameleons jvo
Avid Member
I just read this and I'm very sorry to hear about the loss of your male
I also think something went wrong by taking blood
But like you sad better to focus on the healthy once that are doing well
I also receive some good news out Of Uganda,Wildlife announced that 4 species get a quota(a very small on but better than nothing i guess)johnstonii,xenorhina,hoehnnelli altaeelgonis and elliotti.
So as soon i see one Virunga i know an address were to send to
I also think something went wrong by taking blood
But like you sad better to focus on the healthy once that are doing well
I also receive some good news out Of Uganda,Wildlife announced that 4 species get a quota(a very small on but better than nothing i guess)johnstonii,xenorhina,hoehnnelli altaeelgonis and elliotti.
So as soon i see one Virunga i know an address were to send to
Dr O
Veterinarian
This is going to be a bit of a long post, as there are several points that I need to address.
First, my HUGE condolences to Jason for your loss. It is very obvious to anyone who has either followed your thread from the beginning (or is just catching up) what this shipment has meant to you for a very long time. They are (were) both gorgeous examples of their species. Nothing else that I may write lessens my sadness for his death and your loss.
However, I need to add some relevant information to this thread. I am acting somewhat as an intermediary in this situation; please understand that. I cannot answer all questions that may be asked, but I can include some relevant information and historical facts that are indisputable.
This past Thursday, I was a bit stunned to check a message on my cell phone and discover that a veterinarian who is in the absolute crème de la crème of the exotics world (particularly avian and herps) had phoned me for a consult on a sick Johnston’s. Frankly, I have read so many of her articles in the past and seen her name written so often as a featured guest lecturer at conferences….I thought someone was pulling my leg at first. But I returned the call, and lo and behold it was really her! She asked if I was familiar with a thread on the CF re: a new Johnston’s cham that had recently been imported and was going downhill, which I was not. But I immediately exclaimed something to the effect of. “A Johnstoni? Who was lucky enough to get their hands on some?” as they are one of my favorite species in the cham world. The vet gave me the history and her findings along with her treatment plan. At that point Jason had recently left the appointment. However, she and I continued to stay in touch through the rest of the day as Bwindi began developing rear limb paresis and discoloration, and the rest of the thread gives the unfortunate outcome.
The “he said/she said” in this case comes down to the blood draw. As it became apparent that the owner was tying an incorrectly performed procedure with his chameleon’s demise, she was somewhat taken aback. According to her, she performed a midline approach to the ventral tail vein distal to the hemipenes, and tried again in the same location with a lateral approach. Not only does she say she was no where near the “suspected dark area”, she has photos of him before the blood draw was attempted and that area is evidently already darkening. Additionally, there are no vessels anywhere in that darkened area to draw from, so I don’t believe that even a semi-competent vet would stick a needle there; it would be like trying the dorsal spines to see if a new vessel somehow grew there. It was explained to me that for the actual draw he was restrained gently in a towel with a technician's assistance (see OP photo), and she believes it was impossible for the owner to see the actual moment of the attempt. Additionally, Motherlode ironically mentioned how her UC-Davis vets correctly draw their blood from chams; this vet in question did her 3 year residency at UC-Davis! And her other positions have been at some of the very best this nation has to offer for exotic medicine.
Let’s move on before I try to conclude this. What we all know as facts play an enormous role here. Johnstoni are one of the more particularly stress-prone species. We know the generally abominable conditions in which most chams are exported. We know that he took quite a ride around the world prior to arriving at the OP’s home (some questions re: his actual beginnings, shipped to Holland for several months, then Los Angeles, and finally Austin). We also see in this thread a general decline in his health through most of the time that he was living in Austin; it was stated that he wasn’t eating well, his weight was commented on, possible respiratory issues already noted, and the photos certainly show a very rapid decline in his appearance, dark marks already beginning to be visible around his body.
To tie this together; there was an exceedingly stressful situation happening for a cham that doesn’t handle stress well, several ports of call, and who knows how many opportunities to be exposed to a new disease or easily have an existing low-grade issue recrudesce. At this point of failing health he was taken to the vet; likely necessary but still another huge stress on him (even if he never left his cage, never mind being handled). At this point opinions diverge on what happened next. I don’t know what Jason did see and/or interpret correctly, nor do I know where needles were stuck. However, I do know that the likelihood of one of the country’s leading experts on reptilian medicine and surgery to decide to stick needles where no blood supply exists is truly minuscule; she has performed thousands upon thousands of blood draws before. Additionally, there isn’t a way to cause rear limb paralysis when drawing distal to the hemipenes; the central nervous system just doesn’t work that way.
The necropsy (and I commend you for doing one!! Huge props!!) will likely give most of the causes of collapse and death. IMO you will get a report that sees significant lung damage from a RI, potential renal failure/other major renal issues, and likely already septic with the dark markings coalescing over the body in the photos. When we had spoken later that night and she told me about the development of the caudal issues after the appointment, my response at that time (playing the medical odds) was that he may have already had a weakness/infection/”greenstick fracture” in his vertebra which decompensated, or that he was already septic and beginning to throw blood clots around his body which, just like any stroke, can cause a normal animal to be on death’s door within seconds, nevermind an animal that is already decompensated in many ways.
To summarize: any long-term cham owner or member of the CF knows how difficult importation of certain species can be, and more often than not it goes poorly for those animals being shipped. Most do not survive the trip, and many that do will still die from related issues. The vet that Jason went to would be welcome at a roundtable with Mader, Klingenberg, Jacobson, Mitchell and several others that are the best vets out there for herps. If he had never made it to the vet he would have still likely passed away; again most of us realize that. The pitchfork-waving has gotten a bit out of control here; and I personally think she has been unfairly defamed. In fact, I’m surprised the mods are allowing the name of the hospital in the thread; I thought that was reserved for the BOI? I can tell you that she’s upset and saddened about the direction that the thread went and comments that were made, nevermind the loss of a beautiful, prized animal.
It’s unlikely that I can add any more info that what I have written here. I was asked to write this to have everyone remember that the entire importation process is the most likely cause of his demise, not an improper blood draw. And I agree; if that was left as the “learning point” from this case, I think many readers of the thread would come away with incorrect assumptions, an excellent vet could lose some credibility, and future animals could be harmed from a misplaced fear of not seeing this or another vet.
Jason, I’m looking forward to seeing the necropsy report if you are going to post it. You and I don’t know each other and please understand that I admittedly was not there; however there were some very large red flags popping up in those last days that he was in rough shape. In many surveys, the most “trusted professions” often have veterinarians, pharmacists, and religious leaders vying for the top slots. I personally believe her when she describes the venipuncture attempt, and everything else makes sense around that as well. What would make no sense is an expert (and she truly is) attempting something completely bogus, and that becoming the cause of death. I hope everyone can step back for a minute and re-evaluate the situation with the pertinent history, and what we already know about importing certain species. This situation then becomes unfortunately all-too-common, and we have seen it many, many times before in this forum.
Sincerely,
O-
First, my HUGE condolences to Jason for your loss. It is very obvious to anyone who has either followed your thread from the beginning (or is just catching up) what this shipment has meant to you for a very long time. They are (were) both gorgeous examples of their species. Nothing else that I may write lessens my sadness for his death and your loss.
However, I need to add some relevant information to this thread. I am acting somewhat as an intermediary in this situation; please understand that. I cannot answer all questions that may be asked, but I can include some relevant information and historical facts that are indisputable.
This past Thursday, I was a bit stunned to check a message on my cell phone and discover that a veterinarian who is in the absolute crème de la crème of the exotics world (particularly avian and herps) had phoned me for a consult on a sick Johnston’s. Frankly, I have read so many of her articles in the past and seen her name written so often as a featured guest lecturer at conferences….I thought someone was pulling my leg at first. But I returned the call, and lo and behold it was really her! She asked if I was familiar with a thread on the CF re: a new Johnston’s cham that had recently been imported and was going downhill, which I was not. But I immediately exclaimed something to the effect of. “A Johnstoni? Who was lucky enough to get their hands on some?” as they are one of my favorite species in the cham world. The vet gave me the history and her findings along with her treatment plan. At that point Jason had recently left the appointment. However, she and I continued to stay in touch through the rest of the day as Bwindi began developing rear limb paresis and discoloration, and the rest of the thread gives the unfortunate outcome.
The “he said/she said” in this case comes down to the blood draw. As it became apparent that the owner was tying an incorrectly performed procedure with his chameleon’s demise, she was somewhat taken aback. According to her, she performed a midline approach to the ventral tail vein distal to the hemipenes, and tried again in the same location with a lateral approach. Not only does she say she was no where near the “suspected dark area”, she has photos of him before the blood draw was attempted and that area is evidently already darkening. Additionally, there are no vessels anywhere in that darkened area to draw from, so I don’t believe that even a semi-competent vet would stick a needle there; it would be like trying the dorsal spines to see if a new vessel somehow grew there. It was explained to me that for the actual draw he was restrained gently in a towel with a technician's assistance (see OP photo), and she believes it was impossible for the owner to see the actual moment of the attempt. Additionally, Motherlode ironically mentioned how her UC-Davis vets correctly draw their blood from chams; this vet in question did her 3 year residency at UC-Davis! And her other positions have been at some of the very best this nation has to offer for exotic medicine.
Let’s move on before I try to conclude this. What we all know as facts play an enormous role here. Johnstoni are one of the more particularly stress-prone species. We know the generally abominable conditions in which most chams are exported. We know that he took quite a ride around the world prior to arriving at the OP’s home (some questions re: his actual beginnings, shipped to Holland for several months, then Los Angeles, and finally Austin). We also see in this thread a general decline in his health through most of the time that he was living in Austin; it was stated that he wasn’t eating well, his weight was commented on, possible respiratory issues already noted, and the photos certainly show a very rapid decline in his appearance, dark marks already beginning to be visible around his body.
To tie this together; there was an exceedingly stressful situation happening for a cham that doesn’t handle stress well, several ports of call, and who knows how many opportunities to be exposed to a new disease or easily have an existing low-grade issue recrudesce. At this point of failing health he was taken to the vet; likely necessary but still another huge stress on him (even if he never left his cage, never mind being handled). At this point opinions diverge on what happened next. I don’t know what Jason did see and/or interpret correctly, nor do I know where needles were stuck. However, I do know that the likelihood of one of the country’s leading experts on reptilian medicine and surgery to decide to stick needles where no blood supply exists is truly minuscule; she has performed thousands upon thousands of blood draws before. Additionally, there isn’t a way to cause rear limb paralysis when drawing distal to the hemipenes; the central nervous system just doesn’t work that way.
The necropsy (and I commend you for doing one!! Huge props!!) will likely give most of the causes of collapse and death. IMO you will get a report that sees significant lung damage from a RI, potential renal failure/other major renal issues, and likely already septic with the dark markings coalescing over the body in the photos. When we had spoken later that night and she told me about the development of the caudal issues after the appointment, my response at that time (playing the medical odds) was that he may have already had a weakness/infection/”greenstick fracture” in his vertebra which decompensated, or that he was already septic and beginning to throw blood clots around his body which, just like any stroke, can cause a normal animal to be on death’s door within seconds, nevermind an animal that is already decompensated in many ways.
To summarize: any long-term cham owner or member of the CF knows how difficult importation of certain species can be, and more often than not it goes poorly for those animals being shipped. Most do not survive the trip, and many that do will still die from related issues. The vet that Jason went to would be welcome at a roundtable with Mader, Klingenberg, Jacobson, Mitchell and several others that are the best vets out there for herps. If he had never made it to the vet he would have still likely passed away; again most of us realize that. The pitchfork-waving has gotten a bit out of control here; and I personally think she has been unfairly defamed. In fact, I’m surprised the mods are allowing the name of the hospital in the thread; I thought that was reserved for the BOI? I can tell you that she’s upset and saddened about the direction that the thread went and comments that were made, nevermind the loss of a beautiful, prized animal.
It’s unlikely that I can add any more info that what I have written here. I was asked to write this to have everyone remember that the entire importation process is the most likely cause of his demise, not an improper blood draw. And I agree; if that was left as the “learning point” from this case, I think many readers of the thread would come away with incorrect assumptions, an excellent vet could lose some credibility, and future animals could be harmed from a misplaced fear of not seeing this or another vet.
Jason, I’m looking forward to seeing the necropsy report if you are going to post it. You and I don’t know each other and please understand that I admittedly was not there; however there were some very large red flags popping up in those last days that he was in rough shape. In many surveys, the most “trusted professions” often have veterinarians, pharmacists, and religious leaders vying for the top slots. I personally believe her when she describes the venipuncture attempt, and everything else makes sense around that as well. What would make no sense is an expert (and she truly is) attempting something completely bogus, and that becoming the cause of death. I hope everyone can step back for a minute and re-evaluate the situation with the pertinent history, and what we already know about importing certain species. This situation then becomes unfortunately all-too-common, and we have seen it many, many times before in this forum.
Sincerely,
O-
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Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
Thank you for posting with additional information and some of the other side of the story. The information you posted definitely helps clarify some of the situation and give better perspective. Without having known anything about the qualifications of the vet in question and having no reason to question the chain of events and details provided by Jason, I think the concern expressed, information on proper techniques provided, and recommendations of finding a vet familiar with proper herpetological medicine techniques were all understandable. The information you have provided, however, does help emphasize that these events (particularly the blood draw location) may not have been exactly as presented, which may well effect the concerns voiced in response.
I would like to emphasize, however, that unless a concern about a rule violation is voiced to the moderators (either via PM or the report function on every post), we may not always notice an issue so that it can be dealt with. The posting of the name of the clinic in this thread was not done prominently, in my opinion, was not done in a negative reference at the time, and as far as I can tell, the actual name of the clinic was not given. I honestly had to go back and find what you were talking about after reading your post because I did not recall it being stated at all. As a result, and because it was not reported, obviously it slipped by and the moderators were unaware, not allowing it. Rather than simply delete his post and yours for specific mention of the vet and clinic (by way of her CV in yours), which would keep Jason's original account of what happened and all subsequent posts but remove the new perspective you provided, I will leave them for the time being and request that Brad go in an edit the posts in question to remove identifying details.
In any event, I hope the results of the necropsy help illuminate what is going on so that the surviving animals can hopefully benefit from that knowledge.
Chris
I would like to emphasize, however, that unless a concern about a rule violation is voiced to the moderators (either via PM or the report function on every post), we may not always notice an issue so that it can be dealt with. The posting of the name of the clinic in this thread was not done prominently, in my opinion, was not done in a negative reference at the time, and as far as I can tell, the actual name of the clinic was not given. I honestly had to go back and find what you were talking about after reading your post because I did not recall it being stated at all. As a result, and because it was not reported, obviously it slipped by and the moderators were unaware, not allowing it. Rather than simply delete his post and yours for specific mention of the vet and clinic (by way of her CV in yours), which would keep Jason's original account of what happened and all subsequent posts but remove the new perspective you provided, I will leave them for the time being and request that Brad go in an edit the posts in question to remove identifying details.
In any event, I hope the results of the necropsy help illuminate what is going on so that the surviving animals can hopefully benefit from that knowledge.
Chris
biffle
Avid Member
We hired the best experts possible to conduct the necropsy and pathology. We ordered every panel available from the pathologist. We will share our pathology and lab results with the community. We will not let this wonderful animal die in vein. What we learn from the necropsy will inform the broader knowledge base, assist anyone in importing chams, and help us make decisions on care of the chams in our possession.
Jason
Jason
Dr O
Veterinarian
(slaps forehead) yeah, that probably wasn't the best move to post a CV after mentioning the name situation! i personally don't hide behind anonymity; my name/hospital name/etc. is in all of my posts. it was her concern that made me mention it; trying to abide CF rules. but posting CV's pretty much defeats that point!! my goof entirely. and i too am very interested in the necropsy as i am with all necropsies; they generally are incredibly educational and y'all know i'm a fan of that! and of course this particular situation has even more questions that need to be answered.
Dr O
Veterinarian
to be certain we're on the same page, it wasn't my case nor have i ever said if i may or may not have done something differently. but the short answer is, yes, of course! i tend to get bronchitis almost every winter; i am quite used to the protocol of getting my blood drawn and a chest xray at the hospital.
simply answered, bloodwork typically shows the degree to which the body is responding to an infection, and based on whatever cell lines may be elevated and/or decreased, it can additionally help to point to bacteria, viruses, or parasites as the cause of an infection. needless to say those would be massively different treatments. and whereas a chest rad likely wouldn't diagnose an upper respiratory infection, it will tell us if there is a lower respiratory infection (i.e. pneumonia) which has a much more grim prognosis. and then we will also know that a lung wash is going to be much more likely to show the source of infection; otherwise jumping directly to that would cause an even more stressful procedure (the wash) being done for no cause if the lungs appear clean.
chameleons are difficult enough to keep healthy or turn the tide if they become ill; there is really no argument to be made against having the most amount of answers to what the body is going through will give the best fighting chance for recovery.
Dr O
Veterinarian
Regarding the PM suggesting that I remove my post...i don’t believe in censorship, particularly when I haven’t made any accusations; rather I offered another, more likely scenario IME. If I have been misled or lied to by a colleague, I will be among the first to wave my pitchfork as well!! However that would be quite a stunning development given the respect this vet has in the field. I am not afraid to admit when I’m wrong; never have been. Hopefully the necropsy will answer every question. But does that mean every other person who posted their opinions before the results are in should remove their posts as well? I don’t think anyone, including yourself would agree with that. I was specifically asked to be contacted; given that, I think it’s fair to allow my opinion.
I have done the lateral approach on one of my own chameleons and been successful where the ventral (under the tail) approach was not. It's generally not very successful in chams compared to larger lizards like iguanas and crocs with larger vessels but it can work. Even on the ventral approach sometimes requires several attempts to be successful and it can cause darker discoloration of the tail past the point of the blood draw. Usually it's temporary. But the darker discoloration does not travel up the tail to the body, and paralysis certainly would not be a result of a blood draw from the tail just based on the anatomy of the nervous system.
I think it is important to have the additional input that Dr O provided as someone who consulted on the case and is very familiar with the vet in question. In he said/she said situations it is fair to present both sides imo. There may be no way to ever truly know what happened or didn't happen, however this is a very credible vet that was working on him and while it's terrible that Bwindi passed, it most likely would have happened regardless of vet care. There are definitely a lot of vets who do not know how to properly deal with chams, but in this case I think he had a good team on his side. The stress of going to the vet can definitely push them over the edge, but the alternative is no treatment and they still usually die, just slower. It's a hard situation to be in. The clinic name and vet name were edited out of the posts because that is appropriate given the circumstances.
The short answer is yes. Other factors may change which specific diagnostics are prioritized or changed but ideally any risk of pneumonia should get xrays and bloodwork to determine the extent of the infection.
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Dr O
Veterinarian
thank you, ferret!
Saldarya
Established Member
From watching this thread, I appreciate both Dr. O. jumping in and sharing some feedback and further information. That being said, your posts are seemingly moving from 'Here is some further info' to something more akin to active support of this vet.
The facts are that none of us, except the vet and Jason, know exactly what happen or better put, were there ( I know you said as much Dr. O.), and as such, should support neither side.
Interestingly, no one has mentioned the fact that perhaps the vet, or the tech helping made a simple mistake causing an issue above and beyond what may have been the original issue.
The one fact that stands out to me is that the animal came in physically vigorous, that is pics show that it took a tech to help hold down the animal so the blood draw could be done. For the animal to go from that to near lifelessness in a matter of minutes seems odd to me. Again, I am not a vet clearly, but SOMETHING happen at that time. Be it actions by the vet team (out of neglect, or more likely on accident) or a massive break down over the course of minutes due to stress. That is the point in time that should be analyzed. Not the fact that it may have had an RI for the past 2 weeks leading up to this visit and that moment in time it crashed.
Again, I do think we have to be careful not to pull out the torches and pitchforks and via the internet 'march' on this vets practice, clearly she has the credentials to have seen and treated this animal.
Likewise, I dont think we should give a free pass that she could have done no harm just because she is a respected member of the field and has a ton of experience.
Something to consider.
The facts are that none of us, except the vet and Jason, know exactly what happen or better put, were there ( I know you said as much Dr. O.), and as such, should support neither side.
Interestingly, no one has mentioned the fact that perhaps the vet, or the tech helping made a simple mistake causing an issue above and beyond what may have been the original issue.
The one fact that stands out to me is that the animal came in physically vigorous, that is pics show that it took a tech to help hold down the animal so the blood draw could be done. For the animal to go from that to near lifelessness in a matter of minutes seems odd to me. Again, I am not a vet clearly, but SOMETHING happen at that time. Be it actions by the vet team (out of neglect, or more likely on accident) or a massive break down over the course of minutes due to stress. That is the point in time that should be analyzed. Not the fact that it may have had an RI for the past 2 weeks leading up to this visit and that moment in time it crashed.
Again, I do think we have to be careful not to pull out the torches and pitchforks and via the internet 'march' on this vets practice, clearly she has the credentials to have seen and treated this animal.
Likewise, I dont think we should give a free pass that she could have done no harm just because she is a respected member of the field and has a ton of experience.
Something to consider.
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rshewfel
Established Member
From my experience, sick wild-caught chameleons have a habit of dying. No matter what the outcome of the autopsy, I personally would find it hard to hold the vet responsible.
There are not enough good chameleon vets. Discrediting an established vet would just be another unfortunate outcome. From what I have read, I personally would take my chameleon to her, if I lived in the area and did not already have a good vet.
I just hope everyone comes out of this having learned something.
There are not enough good chameleon vets. Discrediting an established vet would just be another unfortunate outcome. From what I have read, I personally would take my chameleon to her, if I lived in the area and did not already have a good vet.
I just hope everyone comes out of this having learned something.
Or "A massive break down over the course of minutes due to stress BECAUSE of the fact that it may have had an RI for the past 2 weeks (or longer) leading up to this visit." As has been said, no one knows exactly what happened during the appointment except the people there. However, that being said, there is a very classic syndrome of exotic animals who are sick but still look stable going to the vet and just the stress of traveling and restraint (even perfect, gently restraint) causes them to tip over the edge and die then or shortly afterward. As everyone knows, exotic animals hide signs of illness very well. It's their entire job to do so because if they look sick something eats them in the wild and that instinct has not diasappeared in captivity. This is why everyone panics when their cham looks sick because they know it means it's already advanced to see the symptoms. So exotics will use all their energy to look and act as normal as possible - it's like a person being sick and then trying to do something strenuous. You may be able to get through the task by mustering up the energy but afterward you feel like 10 times worse because you overexerted what little energy you had left. I once donated blood in college and felt 100% fine afterward, and had eaten before, but had to run to the bus to catch a class. It didn't take that much energy to run a short distance but once I sat down on the bus I passed out. My body couldn't take that extra exertion despite before it was compromising just fine before I had to exert that energy. Just an example.
Anyway, when an exotic does this it appears that the vet killed it, but the truth is that animal was going to die anyway the overwhelming majority of the time. It just would have been a slower wasting away style of death because the animal would have slowly lost its ability to cope with what was causing it to be sick. Had it not gone to the vet it would not have gotten treatment needed to make it better, but going to the vet for that treatment caused it to use the last bit of strength to keep up that normal appearance. Then when they lose that they succumb quickly to what's going on internally. It's really hard for someone who's just lost a pet to differentiate that though, and that's very understandable. Having worked with a lot of exotics I'm familiar with this syndrome and I always warn any owner of a sick exotic of this situation and how it manifests. When an animal dies from the stress of a vet visit then it most likely was going to die anyway completely irrelevant of the vet because it was too sick to even tolerate the treatment needed to save it. I've even skipped the exams on some exotics that I already know to try to reduce that stress for exactly that reason and just sent home meds and they still die, usually shortly after the owners gave the meds. And these are competant owners I've done this with so I know the meds were given quickly and appropriately. They just can't handle the stress of the treatment itself, but they need it to have a chance to survive the illness. Sometimes (usually) they are just so much sicker than they look. It's still horrible to have to go through and very easy to assume something was done wrong to cause the death because it seems easy to put 2 and 2 together and get 4. But without knowing how sick they were (which is why the necropsy is going to be so helpful!) you don't have the full story.
Could a mistake have been made? Yes, no one is perfect and mistakes can happen. But could this all have happened without anyone making any mistakes? Absolutely.
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Eric Adrignola
Avid Member
Years ago, a friend of mine, Pete Mackevich, in PA, had imported a whole group of johnstoni. This is mid-90's. He showed me the last survivor, an ugly, scarred-up female. All the others died the same way. They all seemed to thrive initially. One by one, they dropped dead, with blood in their mouths. Necroscopies were preformed and found the same problem with each one of them: Severe respiratory infections secondary to parasitic infections by a type of lung-worm.
He guessed these parasites were common in the species, but the stress of importation - coupled with the parasite - had made the animals much more sensitive to respiratory infections. According to him, these were sizable worms.
Just 20 year old info that may be of interest, even though it might not be directly applicable. Couldn't hurt.
I hope these guys do well, they're beautiful.
He guessed these parasites were common in the species, but the stress of importation - coupled with the parasite - had made the animals much more sensitive to respiratory infections. According to him, these were sizable worms.
Just 20 year old info that may be of interest, even though it might not be directly applicable. Couldn't hurt.
I hope these guys do well, they're beautiful.
rshewfel
Established Member
The pair I had did very poorly also.
From what I have experienced, if one chameleon in a group has an illness, most will develop the same illness. This most recently happened with my group of lateralis. If I had purchased one of these johnstoni, I would tell my vet what is going on with the group. Don't wait until they are obviously sick.
eisentrauti
Avid Member
I don't want to provoke anybody, but why do you all bring the chameleons directly to the vet ? The process of the import is an huge amount of stress for them, even if it's organized by professionals like Jurgen. Especially when they land at the importers place and then are shipped for another time.
When I get new chameleons they get their own cage and for two-four weeks they are extremely misted and only fed with easy to catch food which won't stress them (mainly Panchlora niveau, I think silkworms can work as well).
And yes I know that people won't hear that but does somebody know a success story including a chameleon species like johnstoni and a vet ? Where an ill or unhealthy looking johnstoni was treated by a doc and then continued to live for months/years ?
Edit: I don't want to blame a vet or a keeper, but that's just one of the reasons why Chameleons are the most difficult to care for reptiles. An ill animal is with 99% chance a dead one
When I get new chameleons they get their own cage and for two-four weeks they are extremely misted and only fed with easy to catch food which won't stress them (mainly Panchlora niveau, I think silkworms can work as well).
And yes I know that people won't hear that but does somebody know a success story including a chameleon species like johnstoni and a vet ? Where an ill or unhealthy looking johnstoni was treated by a doc and then continued to live for months/years ?
Edit: I don't want to blame a vet or a keeper, but that's just one of the reasons why Chameleons are the most difficult to care for reptiles. An ill animal is with 99% chance a dead one
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