Topical calcium drops for MBD?

[nexus]

Ive recently bought a 4 month old female veiled chameleon which I now know has metabolic bone disease due to her bowed limbs. Ive been treating her with calcium dusted, gutloaded crickets, UVB 5.0 bulb and natural sunlight as much as possible, although Ive also been using a topical application of calcium drops twice a week too. Ive scoured previous posts to see if anyone knows about the effectiveness or safety of administering calcium in this way but cant find anything.

 

[pssh]

Liquid calcium is fine in small quantities. I'd take her to the vet and have them inject calcium until the calcium levels are appropriate. They then inject another thing (can't remember the name) that draws the calcium into the bones quickly.

 

[nexus]

I have to treat this chameleon myself unfortunately because chameleons are not allowed to be kept as pets in my country.

 

[pssh]

Which country is that? I hope that you can make her life better. Be careful of over feeding and too hot temps as they will cause her to produce eggs which would be bad if she has MBD. Feed 6-8 crickets or equivalent of every other day (total of 3 times a week) if she is not of breeding age (6months) feeding doesn't matter as much.

 

[nexus]

Haha I probably shouldnt say which country but we arent allowed to keep exotic reptiles here, only local ones. I was told the chameleon is about 4 months old, and she looks about the same size as the one on your head in your photo. Hopefully I can turn it around and strengthen her bones up, although from what Ive read theyre not going to ever become straight because it looks like she has had fractures distal to her knees/ elbows. At the moment she has shaky movements when grasping branches, along with bowed limbs but she is eating and drinking well unassisted.

 

[draetish]

Ive recently bought a 4 month old female veiled chameleon which I now know has metabolic bone disease due to her bowed limbs. Ive been treating her with calcium dusted, gutloaded crickets, UVB 5.0 bulb and natural sunlight as much as possible, although Ive also been using a topical application of calcium drops twice a week too. Ive scoured previous posts to see if anyone knows about the effectiveness or safety of administering calcium in this way but cant find anything.

When you say "topical" does that mean you are actually putting it "on" the chameleon or are you giving to her orally?

 

[nexus]

Directly onto the chameleons skin. The directions on the bottle say its good for topical application but I havent heard of anyone on the forum doing it. Apparently the calcium can be absorbed accross the skin but Im unsure and was looking for advice.

 

[draetish]

Liquid calcium is fine in small quantities. I'd take her to the vet and have them inject calcium until the calcium levels are appropriate. They then inject another thing (can't remember the name) that draws the calcium into the bones quickly.

I don't think you should give such advise on liquid calcium. If you are going to tell someone this and state small quantities, you should be more specific and exact as to the amount. However, you can't do that without knowing the weight of the cham and measuring out the dose which only a vet can do. So IMHO this is not good advice. Also, be careful about readily giving injections to chameleons even by a knowledgable vet, that should be the last resort as this is very stressful.

 

[draetish]

Directly onto the chameleons skin. The directions on the bottle say its good for topical application but I havent heard of anyone on the forum doing it. Apparently the calcium can be absorbed accross the skin but Im unsure and was looking for advice.

You can stop MBD from getting worse but the damage is not reversable. Please fill out the "How to Ask for Help" form so members can determine if the husbandry needs tweaking and if supplements are being used accordingly.

 

[nexus]

I think Ive got all the other things sorted out, after all it was the previous owner who caused the MBD, Im just trying to fix it.
Temps: Basking spot 30 degrees, ambient temps 25. (celcius)
Humidity: Aimed to be kept around 50% with hand misting and dripper.
Enclosure:12x12x12 glass with mesh sides and top. Located in quiet end of lounge room. Soon to be upgraded to much larger flexarium when she gets a little bigger.
Plants: Fake ficus plants and vines. Substrate is fake grass carpet.
Food: crickets calcium dusted always, calcium and D3/ vitamins every 2 weeks. I currently offer a few medium sized crickets daily. Crickets fed on banana, carrot, apple and commercial gutload.
Lighting: Im currently using a reptiglow UVB 5.0 coil 13 hours a day in conjunction with sunlight when i can. Im switching to a UVB 5.0 tube next week because of bad reports of coil bulbs.

 

[draetish]

I haven't heard of using calcium "on" the skin. I think the dusting of crickets every feeding is too much. Use the calcium w/o D3 twice a week on crickets. If you have dark green leafy veg like collard or mustard greens, use that to gutload the crickets along with carrots and yams. If she has proper UVB lights and getting sun, I'd back off of using the D3 except maybe twice a month because vit D is what we get from the sun. Since she is eating and drinking well, you have done a great job of saving her. Don't over supplement as this can lead to other problems. Keep up the good work and keep us informed of her progress. What's her name? Can you post a picture?

 

[pssh]

Sorry! I though it said tropical... As in a brand of liquid calcium for tropical lizards... My mistake. A drop of liquid calcium wouldn't hurt (feed it to her)

I think using calcium without d3 lightly 5 times a week is fine. That's what I do and it's never caused any problems. Also try to lower the temp to 27.

 

[draetish]

Sorry! I though it said tropical... As in a brand of liquid calcium for tropical lizards... My mistake. A drop of liquid calcium wouldn't hurt (feed it to her)

I think using calcium without d3 lightly 5 times a week is fine. That's what I do and it's never caused any problems. Also try to lower the temp to 27.

How do you know it won't hurt? We are talking about supplements here and without measuring the dose to the adequate weight, I personally would not do it because someone said "it won't hurt". I'm not starting a war here, but this is where I have issues with members blurting out something. Pssh, please say that if this was your cham this "is" what you would do. Would you give your cham a drop of liquid calcium? If the cham is doing well, an overdose of calcium is not going to reverse the MBD. Watch the progress and as stated on this forum over and over again, Over supplementing is not good, in some cases, can cause more harm than good.

 

[jessica]

Hmm is it warm in your country??
The sun can do wonders

I'm not sure about topical calcium, but they do sell oral calcium in pharmacies HERE may be you can check stores around you. Honestly not knowing where your at is kinda making it hard

 

[pssh]

People on here have fed a small drop of liquid calcium to their chameleons before without problem when they were recovering from laying eggs and from MBD. In the threads I've read it in there are never people who get mad and say no. If the chameleon has MBD then how can a little calcium hurt? I'm not advising him to spoon feed her supplements or liquid calcium. I was under the impression that the chameleon was not well and thathe was trying to makenit well. If it is in fact well then don't pay attention to what I said. You don't evn have to pay attention to what I said anyways if she isn't well.

I'm sorry I should have said that I would give a drop of calcium if mine had MBD. If what I've read is wrong then let me know. Also, what would you recommend doing besides a drop of liquid calcium and taking her to the vet for calcium injections as you've already made it clear you don't think that is the proper way to face it? I also do t want to start a war, I should have read more carefully and worded more carefully as well.

 

[draetish]

"Ive recently bought a 4 month old female veiled chameleon which I now know has metabolic bone disease due to her bowed limbs. Ive been treating her with calcium dusted, gutloaded crickets, UVB 5.0 bulb and natural sunlight as much as possible"

Nexus is doing the above and if the cham is eating and drinking well then why throw in some liquid calcium because "it won't hurt". I'm just saying that over supplementing is not good. Also if someone is going to recommend something like liquid calcium, be more specific on the brand, type and dosage that you have used. That way you are recommending something that you have tried and has worked and did not cause more harm.

 

[kinyonga]

nexus...I have no idea if the calcium will be absorbed through the skin or not.

The quickest way to treat the chameleon would be for the vet to give it calcium injections and when the blood calcium levels are high enough, give it a shot of calcitonin which rapidly draws it back into the bones. THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE BY A VET BECAUSE IF THE BLOOD CALCIUM LEVELS ARE NOT HIGH ENOUGH WHEN THE CALCITONIN IS GIVEN TO THE CHAMELEON THE CHAMELEON'S BLOOD WILL LOOSE TOO MUCH CALCIUM AND LEAD TO THE DEATH OF THE CHAMELEON.

Alternately, a slower way of getting the calcium back in balance is to give it some liquid calcium sandoz or gluconate (based on the size of the chameleon) since the liquid calcium is absorbed more readily than the powders. At the same time you need to make sure your husbandry is right, of course.

You may know all of this, but others reading this thread may not...
D3, phosphorus, vitamin A and calcium are all players in bone health and should be in balance. You need to look at the supplements, what is fed to the insects and what is fed to the chameleon when trying to balance them.

Appropriate temperatures also play a part...they aid in digestion and thus play an indirect part in nutrient absorption.

I have kept/raised/bred/hatched chameleons and many other reptiles for over 25 years now. My veiled females generally live to be over 6 and often over 7 years of age with males living even longer. This is what I do for veileds...
I use a long linear tube fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 UVB light. There should be no glass or plastic between it and the chameleon. Some of the coil, spiral and even some of the tube lights have caused problems with chameleons...but this light has not had bad reports about it so far.

Since many of the feeder insects we use have a poor ratio of calcium to phos. I dust at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder (Rep-Cal) to help to make up for it.

I dust twice a month lightly with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder to ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. The rest of it should be provided by the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system, so don't overdo it.

I dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene source of vitamin A. Beta carotene (prOformed vitamin A) won't build up in the system like prEformed vitamin A can. However, its controversial as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene so some people give their chameleons a little prEformed vitamin A once in a while. Excess preformed vitamin A can interfere with the D3 and push the chameleon towards MBD...so be careful.

I gutload insects such as crickets, superworms, roaches with a wide assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.). Be careful of bananas...they have phos. in them.

Also...I keep the temperatures in the low 80's for hatchling chameleons.
I'm not a fan of carpet-type coverings for the cage floor...they look nice but they may hold bacteria in them.

I hope this helps!

 

[draetish]

nexus...I have no idea if the calcium will be absorbed through the skin or not.

The quickest way to treat the chameleon would be for the vet to give it calcium injections and when the blood calcium levels are high enough, give it a shot of calcitonin which rapidly draws it back into the bones. THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE BY A VET BECAUSE IF THE BLOOD CALCIUM LEVELS ARE NOT HIGH ENOUGH WHEN THE CALCITONIN IS GIVEN TO THE CHAMELEON THE CHAMELEON'S BLOOD WILL LOOSE TOO MUCH CALCIUM AND LEAD TO THE DEATH OF THE CHAMELEON.

Alternately, a slower way of getting the calcium back in balance is to give it some liquid calcium sandoz or gluconate (based on the size of the chameleon) since the liquid calcium is absorbed more readily than the powders. At the same time you need to make sure your husbandry is right, of course.
You may know all of this, but others reading this thread may not...
D3, phosphorus, vitamin A and calcium are all players in bone health and should be in balance. You need to look at the supplements, what is fed to the insects and what is fed to the chameleon when trying to balance them.

Appropriate temperatures also play a part...they aid in digestion and thus play an indirect part in nutrient absorption.

I have kept/raised/bred/hatched chameleons and many other reptiles for over 25 years now. My veiled females generally live to be over 6 and often over 7 years of age with males living even longer. This is what I do for veileds...
I use a long linear tube fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 UVB light. There should be no glass or plastic between it and the chameleon. Some of the coil, spiral and even some of the tube lights have caused problems with chameleons...but this light has not had bad reports about it so far.

Since many of the feeder insects we use have a poor ratio of calcium to phos. I dust at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder (Rep-Cal) to help to make up for it.

I dust twice a month lightly with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder to ensure that the chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. The rest of it should be provided by the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system, so don't overdo it.

I dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene source of vitamin A. Beta carotene (prOformed vitamin A) won't build up in the system like prEformed vitamin A can. However, its controversial as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene so some people give their chameleons a little prEformed vitamin A once in a while. Excess preformed vitamin A can interfere with the D3 and push the chameleon towards MBD...so be careful.

I gutload insects such as crickets, superworms, roaches with a wide assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.). Be careful of bananas...they have phos. in them.

Also...I keep the temperatures in the low 80's for hatchling chameleons.
I'm not a fan of carpet-type coverings for the cage floor...they look nice but they may hold bacteria in them.

I hope this helps!

Kinyonga he is in a country where it is illegal to have chameleons therefore a vet is out of the question. You mentioned giving "some" liquid calcium, please tell me how one would know how much to give or where to research to find the dosage for the weight of the chameleon? This is where I'm having trouble with advice that is given. I feel the one giving the advice should be more specific in this area.
Thanks,
Donna

 

[kinyonga]

I said "based on the size of the chameleon"...it also depends on the concentration of the calcium supplement, the type of chameleon, how severe the MBD is, the metabolic rate of the chameleon and even the amount of D3 the chameleon is given. Its much harder to overdo the amount of calcium in a chameleon's system than D3 or preformed vitamin A so there is a wider margin for error...its not so critical...so this is why "nobody can/will give you an exact amount.

These might help...
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=96
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=93
http://web.archive.org/web/20060421.../index.php?show=6.Vitamin.D3.and.Calcium.html

 

[nexus]

Thanks for the help everyone. Im in Australia where its currently summer and about 30 degrees celcius in the day. Ive removed her basking light today as the ambient temperature in her enclosure is sitting at around 27 degrees anyway, but right now shes outside getting some natural light. I understand correcting MBD is likely to be a slow process but Im trying to speed up the process as much as I can! The supplement I have been dropping on her skin is called Reptile One: ReptaCal - Drop on calcium supplement for reptiles. (50mg calcium ions per ml). Dosage: 2 drops applied to skin per 100g bodyweight. Treat lizards twice weekly.
Ive been putting on 1 drop twice a week, so far there seems to be no skin irritation etc.
Ill post some pics later today if anyones interested.