Tongue not retracting!?!

[Guaca mole]

Actually a better word would be retracting...
I know that chameleons can have issues with their tongues, but is it common for them to shoot their tongue and it to stay out?

Thankfully I saw when it happened and it freaked us both out. I opened the cage and scooped him up and by then his tongue had gone back inside his mouth. Im not sure exactly what I would have done for him had it not. I have read about them biting their own tongues off or even swallowing their own tongues.

This is now the second time that this has happened. Is this a common thing or is my cham having issues? Anybody else have this happen to them and if so what did you do to rectify it?

Had it not retracted I would have squeezed either side of his jaws until he opened his mouth and put his tongue back in there.

Is there a cause for this or it it just a freak occurance? I dont ever leave any crickets, mealworms or other food unattended in his cage ever so it wasnt like he was shooting for food at the time. The first time it happened he shot and missed and the force of his tongue pulled him completely off of his vine and made him fall. He was stunned then and I did the same thing and scooped him up and it retracted.

I am worried. What if this happens and I am not there to help him?

Anyone?

 

[kaytiller]

I don't really know much about this subject, but the only thing I'll comment is that if this happens again you probably shouldn't put it back in for him.. sounds like it could be a choking hazard!!

 

[jannb]

Welcome to the forums. I'm sorry to hear that your Cham is having problems with his tongue. That is not normal and I would recommend you take him to a good Cham vet for a check up. Where do you live I might can refer a vet if you don't already have one. In the mean time please answer these questions in the link below so we can see if anything in your husbandry might be off that could cause this. I would recommend not feeding him at all for a few days and let the tongue rest. If he has no other problems with his tongue then gently hand feed him in 4 or five days and don't allow him to shoot. Hold the food up close to his mouth. If all continues to go well I would do the close hand feeding for a good couple of weeks and then slowly allow him to do some very short shoots, gradually going back to normal. Wishing you and your little man the very best.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/how-ask-help-66/

 

[Guaca mole]

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Male Veiled Chameleon, age unknown. Sold as 'juvenile' so by my guesstimation maybe 3-6 months? Measures 5" nose to back feet and 5" of tail. I have had him for a little over a month now (purchased January 12th)

Handling - Just about every day, when he wants out I let climb onto my hand. He is very friendly and loves to be out of his cage. I have a hard time getting him back in there for bedtime most nights.

Feeding - I feed him 2x a day, spaced 8 hours apart. 4 crickets, 4 small Superworms, 2 waxworms and various small pieces of fruits and veggies (trying to figure out what he likes) Apples, strawberries, mangos, bananas, carrots, cucumbers, green pepper, red pepper, alfalfa sprouts. I feed the crickets the Flukers orange cubes and Flukers Cricket Quencher (calcium fortified) and gutload them with organic baby food and whatever leftover fruits and veggies that he does not eat. He was skinny when I bought him and has a voracious appetite.

Supplements - Repticalcium w/o D3 on 4 of the crickets, once a day and Repticalcium with D3 2X a week (on 4 of the crickets) substituted on the days that the Repticalcium w/o is not given. Exo terra Multivitamin 2X a month.

Watering - I use a sprayer to mist the plastic plants 3 X per day, get them coated with small droplets of water, enough to let them run down. I let them dry completely between mistings. The 'Lil dripper' is running while I am at work. I have seen him drinking but he seems sort of shy about it now. I just received the Nature Zone watering vine and hooked it to the end of the Lil Dripper last night. I bought a gerbil water bottle and he was able to work it, he likes the shiny element of the ball end. I removed it when I saw him bite it, not sure if he could hurt himself?

Fecal Description - Once a day, like clockwork. Usually pretty large (legnthwise) and the diameter of a pencil. Urates are white with a glob of yellow and has some egg while looking gel surrounding them. He has not been tested for parasites or seen by a vet. He holds his leg out to the side like a dog does when he "goes" I have seen his hemipene pop out once and it went back once he was finished his business.

History - Purchased from PetSmart, my friend said that he looked healthy considering it was from a chain pet store. I work nights and have him on my schedule (days and nights opposite of the rest of the world) His morning is at 6PM and his bedtime is at 6AM. I have light blocking panels in our bedroom and 3' thick styrofoam sound barrier (I live across the street from a VERY boisterous elementary school, awesome when you work nights! *sarcasm*)

Cage Info:
Cage Type - Small sized Reptibreeze screen cage, 16 X16 X20

Lighting - Reptisun 5.0 HO terrarium hood light (fluorescent strip looking model) and a ZooMed mini combo deep dome (dual fixture) with a ZooMed 50w Repti Basking spotlight on for 12 hours (also while the UVB is on) and 12 hours of a blue 50 W night heat lamp, run on a ZooMed 12 hour day/night timer.

Temperature - 75 degrees on the bottom of the cage floor and 85 at basking spot. Lowest overnight temp would 75 degrees at the cage bottom (my AC is set to 75 degrees in my condo) Monitored by an All Living Things digital thermometer/ hygrometer. Bottom cage thermometer is a strip thermometer for an aquarium.

Humidity - 50% at lowest and 99% after mistings. I use a humidifier overnight for him, not sure what the % is while that is on, I need to look. Measured by the thermometer/ hygrometer combo.

Plants - Currently all plastic. I just bought a Schefflera, a hibiscus and a hanging pothos plant. I have not introduced him to them yet, I have also bought the organic soil but have not yet "un-dirted" them and rinsed off the roots or washed the plants to be able to introduce him to them. I had bought a fake moss carpet looking substrate but he tried to eat it so I never put it in his cage.

Placement - Cage is located in the corner of my bedroom, near my bed. It is away from the AC vents draft zone. I have one ceiling fan running on slow to keep the air flowing. Not really a high traffic area, as it is just me. I had the cage on a temporary stand and the top of the cage was about 4' from the ground then. I have since made it so the top is almost at 6' high.

Location - Miami/Ft Lauderdale, Florida

Current Problem - His tongue has not retracted on two separate occasions now (one that happened last night) It freaked both of us out. Not sure what is the cause but I am VERY concerned.

As a first time chameleon owner I think that this forum is a great source of info, I have learned so much in a short time from reading through the threads! I would not have known that his tongue thing was not normal had I not been reading info here. Or that he has a hemipene, or that waterfalls are a no no.
I just want the best for my quickly growing Guacamole. Thank you!

 

[jannb]

I recommend gut loading allot better and feeding a larger variety of feeders.....wax worms are fatty so try a different feeder such as silkworms. I'm not familiar with your supplements but do think supplements play a roll in tongue issues. I'm linking my blog below for how I have has success raising veileds. Also I recommend Dr. Strauss in Weston for a good check up for your guy. He used to own chameleons.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html

 

[Swayne8998]

It seems like you have some problems with supplementation, along with gutloading as Jann said (I recommend looking on Sandrachameleon's blogs on gutloading). For supplementation, I highly recommend this stuff http://www.store.repashy.com/calcium-plus-16-oz-bag.html It is an all-in-one supplement that you can dust with every feeding. But, if you want to stick with what you have now, than dust with calcium NO D3 every feeding, Calcium WITH D3 twice a month and Multivitamin twice a month.

Also, get rid of the nighttime light. The light can bother the chams and his temps should actually be dropping at nighttime to about 70 to even in the high 60s. Good luck with the vet, hope all goes well with your little guy.

 

[Swayne8998]

Also take out the orange cubes and the water crystals, there have been some horror stories that have come from those things. I'm also not sure on the peppers, but I may be wrong. I just have never heard of anyone gutloading with peppers before.

 

[Psychobunny]

Like Jann said, I would hand feed only for a week or so.
My first panther did that too, I turned to look, and his tongue was just hanging
straight down from his mouth.
Before I could finish my heart attack , he "reeled" it back in.

We (vet and I) don't know what happened, and he had several health issues
anyway, but he required hand feeding until he died.
Not just because of the tongue issue, but he had a neurological problem which
likely was a birth defect and could not catch his prey. His balance and distance
were all messed up. He would walk right off the edge of stuff and fall.

Your guy may have hurt his tongue and strained the mussels, so let him have
a rest and just hand feed for a while.
But if it doesn't get better on it's own, you will need to take him to a vet.

 

[FrankTheTank]

Also take out the orange cubes and the water crystals, there have been some horror stories that have come from those things. I'm also not sure on the peppers, but I may be wrong. I just have never heard of anyone gutloading with peppers before.

I have never used the orange cubes, but I use the water crystals for everyone of my feeders with no problem. What exactly are the horror stories you are referring to? And gut loading with peppers is fine. But I wouldn't feed fruits or veggies to the chameleon...

 

[Kath44]

Also take out the orange cubes and the water crystals, there have been some horror stories that have come from those things. I'm also not sure on the peppers, but I may be wrong. I just have never heard of anyone gutloading with peppers before.

From what I've read, these aren't what he feeds his Cham, but his feeders.
These alone aren't great, if at all worth the money.
Op, check out Sandra's blog and gut load recipes.

Kath.

 

[Kath44]

I have never used the orange cubes, but I use the water crystals for everyone of my feeders with no problem. What exactly are the horror stories you are referring to? And gut loading with peppers is fine. But I wouldn't feed fruits or veggies to the chameleon...

I believe he has a veiled Cham, who do and can eat fruits and veggies, along with plant leaves in enclosure.
Kath.

 

[fluxlizard]

I just have never heard of anyone gutloading with peppers before.
Reply With Quote Multi-Quote This Message Quick reply to this message

Peppers are fine for feeding insects and lizards.

I do, so now you've heard of someone.

 

[FrankTheTank]

I believe he has a veiled Cham, who do and can eat fruits and veggies, along with plant leaves in enclosure.
Kath.

You shouldn't feed them on a daily basis though. I know that they can eat some every so often, but not for a portion of the everyday diet. They need a high protein diet. I never fed my veiled any fruits, but he did love eating hibiscus leaves and flowers.

 

[Guaca mole]

Thank you everyone for your responces.
I have a bag of the "Cricket Crack" on its way (due to be delivered tomorrow) and am trying to find somewhere online that sells the "Super Chow" for gutloading/ storing the Superworms in. I also ordered some Butterworms and Blue Bottle Fly larvae to hatch for him. I live in Florida so Dubia roaches are a no go. I am trying to get him some variety. I also need to mix up/ make a batch of the Repashy Bug Burger that I have purchased.

I have been dish feeding him already (since before this happened) as I have been trying to watch/ see the mechanics of the tongue as it is shooting. I have always closely monitored his cricket intake to make sure none are roaming his cage. I have been having difficulties finding appropriately sized crickets here locally. The smalls are way too small and the mediums are larger than the space between his eyes by a small amount (but more than I am comfortable with) so I have been keeping a good eye on him as he eats them.

He was on the skinny side when I bought him so I had been giving more waxworms to try to put a little weight on him, which has worked. I am cutting back on the Calcium with D3 altogether for a while and when I do reincorporate it back it will be just 2 times per month month, like I do with the multivitamin. I think that the calcium with the D3 might be what is causing his tongue issue from what I have read here in other threads so in eliminating it I will see if there is any improvement.

I will be getting the live I plants that I bought repotted with organic soil and washed. I bought some FIT vegetable wash (spray) for vegetables to remove any pesticide from the leaves and also some Seventh Generation organic dish soap because I didnt know which I should use.
I will be getting some larger sized river rocks to cover the dirt when I put the plants in the cage. It is a small cage now so I might get him his big boy cage sooner to put them in and rotate the others to my balcony for real sunlight.

I appreciate everyones input in regards to this situation. I will get rid of the Flukers orange cubes and gutload soley with the Cricket Crack and Bug Burger. What can be used for water besides the gel cubes? Any other advice for me?

I am considering a vet visit, to get him looked over and tested for parasites and weighed just as a precaution. My regular vet (for my cat) accepts exotics and he is listed in the vet resource thread. I may take him to the vet that is recommended in Weston, but that would have to be on my next day off. Until then I will keep him under even closer watch and if it happens again I will head to the vet ASAP. Should I take a peep/poop sample with me fir a fecal culture when I go?

 

[fluxlizard]

You shouldn't feed them on a daily basis though. I know that they can eat some every so often, but not for a portion of the everyday diet. They need a high protein diet.

Wondering what your source of data is to support this? It doesn't mesh with my own experience with veileds when I was into them heavily. I was using veggies heavily to try and extend lifespan- especially with breeding females. Had somewhat limited success, but for sure wasn't shortening lifespan by any means...

I generally fed as much salad as they wanted daily and insects 3x per week- playing with the number of insects offered on those days depending on recent clutch sizes for females - larger clutches and I would reduce the number of insects to try and control clutch size and extend the lifespan of the females.

In that kind of schedule, they soon learned to consume very large quantities of salad... Never seemed to hurt anyone... Produced thousands of babies from animals fed this way over several generations back in the 90s...

I appreciate everyones input in regards to this situation. I will get rid of the Flukers orange cubes and gutload soley with the Cricket Crack and Bug Burger. What can be used for water besides the gel cubes? Any other advice for me?

I've bred millions of roaches and lots of mealworms for many years using only fresh fruits and veggies to provide all the water the insects need. Currently I am doing the same with crickets and superworms, having produced several thousand crickets at least in the past month. Fresh veggies and fruit will provide your insects all the water they need.

 

[FrankTheTank]

Wondering what your source of data is to support this? It doesn't mesh with my own experience with veileds when I was into them heavily. I was using veggies heavily to try and extend lifespan- especially with breeding females. Had somewhat limited success, but for sure wasn't shortening lifespan by any means...

I generally fed as much salad as they wanted daily and insects 3x per week- playing with the number of insects offered on those days depending on recent clutch sizes for females - larger clutches and I would reduce the number of insects to try and control clutch size and extend the lifespan of the females.

In that kind of schedule, they soon learned to consume very large quantities of salad... Never seemed to hurt anyone... Produced thousands of babies from animals fed this way over several generations back in the 90s...



I've bred millions of roaches and lots of mealworms for many years using only fresh fruits and veggies to provide all the water the insects need. Currently I am doing the same with crickets and superworms, having produced several thousand crickets at least in the past month. Fresh veggies and fruit will provide your insects all the water they need.

I wouldn't be able to site specific sources and I don't have nearly as much experience as you do but I had read several sources on feeding veiled chams. None of them ever said anything about a daily vegetable or fruit diet. All of them said use sparingly. But you having the experience that you do I wouldn't dare go against it. I will keep my mouth or hands shut on the subject from now on

 

[fluxlizard]

I will keep my mouth or hands shut on the subject from now on

I was genuinely curious, challenging your source, not you.

 

[FrankTheTank]

I was genuinely curious, challenging your source, not you.

I honestly couldnt tell you. It's been years since I read that information. Something I'm sure I read while googling when I first started. But at least google brought me to this site!

 

[PoshPenny]

The e vines have a whole article about feeding veiled chams veggies. Written by dudes with PhDs. Yup yup.

 

[Guaca mole]

Update on Guacamole

Tuesday morning at around 5 AM Guacamole had another "episode". Thankfully I had just gotten home from work and was washing my face to go to bed and heard the commotion in his cage (him freaking out) and I picked him up and when I did his tongue retracted on its own. That was that, we are going to the vet ASAP!

I stayed up with him, actually he was snoozing on my chest and I was waiting until I could call the vets office right at 7:30 AM when it opened. I took him to the Weston Road Animal Hospital in Weston, FL.

We saw Dr Strauss at 11 am and he was very thorough. I brought Guacs poop/peep sample with me, and it was tested for parasites. That was negative.
He suspected possible MBD based on his tongue issues and took a blood sample. I am hoping that comes back negative or at the very least that his kidney function has not been affected if he does indeed have MBD.

I took in his crickets and feeding cup so that Dr Strauss could see his tongue in action/ unaction firsthand. Poor Guac was so hungry he was shooting at the crickets THROUGH the clear plastic keeper! He also tried to eat Dr Strauss' arm hair. He even drank from the rodent bottle while we were there (I took it with us just in case he got thirsty, and I am so glad that I did!) Dr Strauss examined him by squeezing him until he opened his mouth and he checked for any possible obstructions (none) and checked his tongue over by making it manually come out with more squeezing. Guac did not like that. I didnt either. After he was done examining him, I fed him a Superworm out of his feeding dish. He was not able to shoot it with his tongue. He stuck it out about 2 inches but no shot. I had the tech quickly go and get Dr Strauss. Dr Strauss was able to see his not being able to shoot. I am hoping that was just a temporary thing due to all of the squeezing. He has successfully shot all of his food since coming back home, albeit short controlled ones via cup feeding.

Dr Strauss advice to me was to up his daytime cage temp, and that his basking spot should be 95-100 degrees. The 85 degrees I had in his basking spot was too low for a Veiled. His night time temp should be around 85 degrees. I purchased a 60 watt ceramic heat emitter to be able to eliminate the blue nighttime heat (light) bulb and maintain a higher top of the cage temp. It is 86 degrees overnight with the humidifier running nearby. Humidity is coming in at 70% overnight via a Crane cool mist ultrasonic humidifier.

I ordered a Mega Ray SB 100 watt mercury vapor bulb that is on its way to me as well, to give him that extra UVB boost in addition to what his Reptisun 5.0 HO does. Until then I have his basking bulb and a 40 watt household lightbulb to maintain the correct temperature range until the big gun arrives. I will be putting him outside on my balcony for some real sun a few times a week. I need to figure out when so I dont totally throw his schedule out of wack.

I mist his cage well a few times a day, letting it dry completely before the next round. I have his dripper/watering vine running for the duration while I am at work or will be away for a few hours.
I will be washing and repotting the Pothos plant today and putting it in his current cage to help keep the humidity levels up. I am getting his big boy cage sooner than originally planned (24 X 24 X 48) so that I can put the Schefflera in that one. Until then it will be his 'free roam' time accessable plant. Same goes for the hibiscus, it is just a bit too tall for his cage.

Blue Bottle fly spikes and butterworms still have not arrived, I will have to email mantisplace and inquire about their whereabouts. The silkworms I ordered from Amazon were an epic fail. They were the Exo Terra canned ones, as in cooked in the can (!) and smelled absolutely heinous when I opened up the tin can pop top. What is going on with live feeder production shortages/ lack of availability right now? I realize that it is winter and all but wow...

Dr Strauss was surprised to find out that I had never owned a reptile before since I possessed quite a bit of knowledge and could answer his questions. I told him that I learned the majority of it from reading online here in the forum. And also that is how I found him as an exotic vet. Thank you so much to Jannb for the recommendation.

I am anxiously awaiting the call from Dr Strauss with the results of Guacs bloodwork. I am crossing my fingers for some good news. No matter what the results/diagnosis are I will be doing whatever it takes to get him better, and purchase whatever else he may need to do so.

Thank you everyone for your advice and help. I will update here as soon as I get the call.

Much appreciated,
Carrie and Guacamole