Tongue issue and edema

[JBissell]

• Your Chameleon - Male Panther Chameleon, 14 months old. I've had him for 10 months.
• Handling - Never, working to get him comfortable. He will put his legs on my hand if approached slowly.
• Feeding - Primary: dubia roaches- 5-8 medium/large 3x per week, gut loaded with a variety of fresh veggies and dubia diet. (I had been doing Nutri grubs and meal worms. But haven't ordered them in a while, so I will get some ordered)
• Supplements - Zoo Med reptiles calcium w/out d3 once per week.
• Watering - mist king w/ 2 nozzles and rain box with w/ 2 more nozzles. Sprayed 3x per day, early morning, noon, and evening. Upped it by 2 more times at 10 and 3 to have a total of 5 times. Yes, I see him drink when he wants to.
• Fecal Description - White/blackish brown slightly damp, but solid not runny. Never been tested
• History - Possibly dealing with dehydration from a week ago the mist king bucket ran dry for several days.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - 2'x2'x4' mesh cage on top of a glass tank base with bioactive set-up.
• Lighting - Arcadia 12% on cage with basking spot 9" below it. LED plant light over that for plants.
• Temperature - dirt floor: 70 F, mid: 74 F, basking: 96-98F. roughly the same at night as I use ceramic emitters that are on at all times.
• Humidity - 30% during winter 50-70% during summer. Based on dehumidifier in the classroom. (I don't have a specific way I've been maintaining this or checking) If this is a major concern I will look into getting a fogger if you think it is advisable!
• Plants - pothos, dracaena, money plant, and bromeliads.
• Placement - In my classroom at the back of the classroom. Relatively high traffic during the year. But he is almost always out during the entire day. Not near fan or air vents. It is on rolling casters which puts the bottom of the glass tank 3.5" off of the ground, the bottom of the mesh portion at 14" off the ground, and the top of the enclosure, 62" off of the ground.Where is your cage located?
• Location - Lancaster MA

First I have an appointment at a vet for Tuesday at 4pm. If you guys think I need to have him seen, there is an emergency vet that can see him sooner if needed.

Issue: For the past 4-5 weeks approximately, Toothless has been struggling to extend his tongue consistently. He can do it all the time sometimes, then others he can do it for a bit for 4-5 roaches, then he can't. Around when this started happening, he did miss a roach and got my hand and seemed to be thrown off by the event. He also, he has some edema below his throat, between his front legs. Please see pics of Toothless and his tank below.

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi and welcome. I see your problem…it’s supplements…he’s not getting all he needs. While you go looking for Repashy Calcium Plus LoD to buy (has a pic of a Jackson’s on the label), I’ll go thru all of your husbandry. Give me a bit of time though…I talk a lot.

 

[MissSkittles]

My feedback will be bold.

• Your Chameleon - Male Panther Chameleon, 14 months old. I've had him for 10 months.
• Handling - Never, working to get him comfortable. He will put his legs on my hand if approached slowly. Here’s a great blog on building and maintaining trust, which is important. https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/building-trust-with-your-chameleon.2396/
• Feeding - Primary: dubia roaches- 5-8 medium/large 3x per week, gut loaded with a variety of fresh veggies and dubia diet. (I had been doing Nutri grubs and meal worms. But haven't ordered them in a while, so I will get some ordered) Variety of feeders is always best. Adding a graphic to help guide you. Some believe that a diet too high in roaches can contribute to gout and kidney issues. Whether true or not, I prefer to err on the side of caution. If you’re interested in grasshoppers, there are only a couple of sources for them that I know of. Khai Phan on Facebook and https://dragonhoppers.com/ It’s not unusual to have a wait for them. One of my favorite feeders is silkworms, which are also hydrating and perfect for hand feeding.
• Supplements - Zoo Med reptiles calcium w/out d3 once per week. I’m 99% sure that this is the problem with his tongue. Without D3 he can’t utilize the calcium you’re giving. While a good deal is obtained thru UVB exposure, we aren’t sure how much is really needed and so give extra I the form of supplement. Also, he is missing all of the multivitamins that his body needs. I’m not sure if lack of supplements will cause the edema, but it is likely related.
• Watering - mist king w/ 2 nozzles and rain box with w/ 2 more nozzles. Sprayed 3x per day, early morning, noon, and evening. Upped it by 2 more times at 10 and 3 to have a total of 5 times. Yes, I see him drink when he wants to. Sounds like too much. Is there any reason that you added two extra mistings? Usually misting for a good two full minutes right before lights go on and off is sufficient. I also like to add a mid day misting of a minute, just to be sure. The enclosure needs time to dry out in between.
• Fecal Description - White/blackish brown slightly damp, but solid not runny. Never been tested Always is a good idea to have a fecal check done.
• History - Possibly dealing with dehydration from a week ago the mist king bucket ran dry for several days. Ah…ok, this answers my above question. Look at his urates. Are they orange or dark yellow, or are they mostly white/cream color? Dark is indicative of dehydration - we want white/cream color. He shouldn’t still be dehydrated at this point. If needed, you can always give some plump juicy hornworms and silkworms to add additional hydration.

Breaking this into two parts.

 

[MissSkittles]

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - 2'x2'x4' mesh cage on top of a glass tank base with bioactive set-up. Nice. I just wish it was a bit higher off the floor. For chameleons, height = safety.
• Lighting - Arcadia 12% on cage with basking spot 9" below it. Arcadia is a great brand, but you have double the strength needed. You want a 6% bulb and then the correct distance is 8-9”. With a 12% uvb, the distance needs to be more like 11-12” above basking area. Also, is that your uvb in the front or is that the plant light? I ask because that type of uvb fixture has a plastic cover over the light and uvb can’t pass thru it. LED plant light over that for plants.
• Temperature - dirt floor: 70 F, mid: 74 F, basking: 96-98F. Way too hot! Basking temp for an adult male panther should be around 85F. roughly the same at night as I use ceramic emitters that are on at all times. It’s best to have no heat at night and let them have a cool sleep. They can handle chilly nights in the 60’s and possibly below.
• Humidity - 30% during winter 50-70% during summer. A bit dry during the winter. To help maintain humidity you could wrap a plastic shower curtain or other barrier around the back and side(s), leaving the door uncovered. Based on dehumidifier in the classroom. (I don't have a specific way I've been maintaining this or checking) If this is a major concern I will look into getting a fogger if you think it is advisable! Add a hygrometer to your shopping list. A simple digital one with a wired probe end works fine, or you can get a smart one, like a Govee. The only time you would use a fogger to increase humidity is at night but only if your night temps go below at least 68F. Heat + high humidity = increased risk for respiratory infection.
• Plants - pothos, dracaena, money plant, and bromeliads. Nice amount of plants. I do wish he had more branches though. It is a challenge to hang things on a screen enclosure, but there are solutions. I like and use Dragon Ledges https://dragonstrand.com/dragon-ledges/ and also use garden trellis. Both attach to the frame, which takes the weight and not the screen, which would rip. I use thin wires to secure the trellis to the screws of the frame. Then I give my scavenged oak branches a good wash with Dawn and a thorough rinse with the hose and they’re ready to use.
• Placement - In my classroom at the back of the classroom. Relatively high traffic during the year. This is a source of chronic stress then. Do you have some way to provide him a bit more privacy? I use the fake plants I started with on the outside of my chams enclosures to give them a bit of privacy. Maybe you can do the same? Just an idea. But he is almost always out during the entire day. Not near fan or air vents. It is on rolling casters which puts the bottom of the glass tank 3.5" off of the ground, the bottom of the mesh portion at 14" off the ground, and the top of the enclosure, 62" off of the ground.Where is your cage located?
• Location - Lancaster MA Nice! My beloved home state! (Western Mass tho)

First I have an appointment at a vet for Tuesday at 4pm. If you guys think I need to have him seen, there is an emergency vet that can see him sooner if needed. It’s not a bad idea. You can get a fecal done too. Make sure to provide all of the same info from here to the vet, so they know…especially about the supplements.

Issue: For the past 4-5 weeks approximately, Toothless has been struggling to extend his tongue consistently. He can do it all the time sometimes, then others he can do it for a bit for 4-5 roaches, then he can't. Around when this started happening, he did miss a roach and got my hand and seemed to be thrown off by the event. This is most likely due to not having usable calcium and multivitamins. I haven’t talked about how important preformed vitamin A is, which he also hasn’t been getting. The Repashy supplement I advised contains all he needs and is used for one feeding every other week (or twice per month). Continue to use calcium without D3 at every other feeding. Your vet may feel he needs a starter boost and give him special supplements or injections. He also, he has some edema below his throat, between his front legs. I do see it, but not sure if it’s from lack of supplements or something else. It may be related to kidney function, which (Keep in mind I’m taking the info you’ve given and making a guess here) could be from a combination of roach-heavy diet, bout of dehydration and being unable to properly use all of the calcium he’s been given. You could get labs done to check organ function if your vet feels it’s necessary. Please see pics of Toothless and his tank below.
I hope I’ve been of some help here.

 

[JBissell]

@MissSkittles, wow! Thanks for the info! I’ll work on correcting all that you advised!

The front black thing is the mist king rain system. The green plastic is just a piece of abs plastic I screwed into the frame to add support for the rain system. The uvb is behind that at an angle with only the mesh as a separation.

I have the dragon strand supports. There are three in the upper third. I’ll put the other two in at the lower third and add more branches.

I upped the mistings because of the suspected dehydration. I’ll drop it back down and adjust the morning and evenings to 2 minutes.

For the height, that’s going the be hard with it being on casters and the bioactive tank on the bottom is atleast 400ish lbs. it’s a brutal dead lift with two guys even down 6” off of a curb. I am moving to another classroom this summer and I should be able to isolate him a lot more and get him out of the heavy traffic areas.

Nice! I like it here in MA, but I would move if my wife would be willing to move from her near her family. It’s too expensive here. lol

Should I not be using the calcium without d3? Only using with d3? I had read a while ago that they shouldn’t get too much d3. I may also be confusing her with my crested gecko research