To Be clear with Vitamins

[knauzeris]

I am about to get my first panther (first cham at all)

Just want to make sure about things to get it done right

1. Vitamins - is it correct - there are calcium and calcium D3 -
For baybe 5 days calcium, 1 day D3 and one day vitamin free
For adult - 2 times a week calcium and once in 2 weeks D3...

2. Food - how many different food types should be there?
Can i live with my cricket farm and time to time get mealworms from store?

3. Just to clear out - how many crickets to baby and how many to - let's say 4, 5 month old? (Cricket size no bigger than he can handle)

 

[pssh]

Calcium without d3 should be used at least 5 times a week as a baby, use calcium with d3 twice a month (maybe more, but it depends on the brand) and a multivitamin without vit A once a month. D3 can be overdosed on though, so it should not be used too often. D3 comes mainly from the UVB light source and we just supplement a tiny bit to make sure the chameleon is getting enough because the bulb is not as good as the sun. Ifyour chameleon sees regular sunlight you don't have to use d3 at all.

I think the best varietyis getting all the bug types you can, but most panthers would behappy with just five different kinds of bugs. (roaches, silk worms, hornworms, superworms, and crickets seem to be the most common.)

Up to 12 crickets (or the equivalent of 12 crickets if you are feeding something else) a day as a baby

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."Vitamins - is it correct - there are calcium and calcium D3 -
For baybe 5 days calcium, 1 day D3 and one day vitamin free
For adult - 2 times a week calcium and once in 2 weeks D3:...I do the same thing for adults as I do for babies but because babies are fed more often they will have more days a week of calcium dusting....so I dust at most feedings with a PHOS.-free calcium powder...twice a month lightly with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder...twice a month with herptivite (a vitamin powder with a beta carotene source of vitamin A). Calcium is a mineral, BTW.

You said..."2. Food - how many different food types should be there?"....the wider the variety the better...but gutloaded crickets can be a good part of the diet.

You said..."how many crickets to baby and how many to - let's say 4, 5 month old? (Cricket size no bigger than he can handle)"...I generally feed both ages mentioned as many as they can eat in a couple of minutes. Once they are mature, they can be fed less.

Here are some good sites...
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200604210...d.Calcium.html
http://chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=102
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleo...le-veiled.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://adcham.com/

 

[sandrachameleon]

I am about to get my first panther (first cham at all)

Just want to make sure about things to get it done right

1. Vitamins - is it correct - there are calcium and calcium D3 -
For baybe 5 days calcium, 1 day D3 and one day vitamin free
For adult - 2 times a week calcium and once in 2 weeks D3...

2. Food - how many different food types should be there?
Can i live with my cricket farm and time to time get mealworms from store?

3. Just to clear out - how many crickets to baby and how many to - let's say 4, 5 month old? (Cricket size no bigger than he can handle)

You've come to the right place to gather more information about vitamins, minerals and feeding.

Calcium (plain phos free calcium without D3) should be lightly dusted on most crickets offered, and lightly dusted on any other insects that have a naturally poor phosphorous to calcium ratio. You do not need to dust every insect - some are naturally high in calcium, some can be gutloaded to increase their calicum contribution.

Unless your chameleon is outside in the natural light all the time, you will need to supplement with D3 as well. This might be once a week or once a month - depends on the brand of supplement you use, amongst other factors.

Vitamins are best provided by offering a variety of insects that are well gutloaded (well fed). Read about gutloading here:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html
This is supplemented by occassional use of a vitamin supplement. Read more about supplements here:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html

I recommend a varied diet - not just one primarily made up of crickets and a few mealworms. This blog entry will provide you with a good list of various feeder insects available, and information about each:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/74-feeders.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/171-where-buy-feeders-online.html

I feed chameleons that are less than six months old as much as they can consume within about 5 minutes, several times a day. By the time they are pretty much adult size at one year, I am feeding them about 1-3 insects per day.

 

[knauzeris]

Thank You for realey usefull information!

 

[knauzeris]

P.S. You all takl about Calcium with and without D3. This is clear now.
But i have heard there are some multi vitamins - like for once per month.
Any info about them?

 

[dodolah]

P.S. You all takl about Calcium with and without D3. This is clear now.
But i have heard there are some multi vitamins - like for once per month.
Any info about them?

For more clarification:
You should have 3 type of supplements:
1. Calcium without D3
2. Calcium with D3
3. Multivitamin (you may choose the one with Beta Carotene OR the one with pre-formed Vit A) * the reason for this is because there is ongoing debate whether or not chameleon can synthesize vit A from Beta Carotene like human do. Some believe they can; some believe they cannot. If you do indeed choose the Multivitamin with preformed vit A, be aware not to overdose your chameleon. Excess Preformed Vit A cannot be flush out of the system like beta carotene).

Examples of the supplements (correspond with the #):
1.

2.

3A. Multivitamin with Beta Carotene:

3B. Multivitamin with Preformed Vit A:

 

[knauzeris]

Thanx dodolah!

I guess it can not be more clear than it is now.

 

[sandrachameleon]

This may be of use:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/174-whats-supplements-brand.html

I use a multivitamin without preformed vitamin A about twice a month (pictured in 3A above), and gutload well. If I were using a vitamin supplement with preformed A, I would be very cautious, and use less often.

I submit it would likely be best to have both types of vitamin supplements - use the one with beta carotene (not preformed A) most of the time, and use the one with preformed A (like retinol/acetate) infrequently but on a regular schedule, such as once every other month, or even as little as every third month.

Remember that gutloading and a wide variety of insects ought be the primary source of vitamins!

 

[Leilaskeeper]

You've come to the right place to gather more information about vitamins, minerals and feeding.

Calcium (plain phos free calcium without D3) should be lightly dusted on most crickets offered, and lightly dusted on any other insects that have a naturally poor phosphorous to calcium ratio. You do not need to dust every insect - some are naturally high in calcium, some can be gutloaded to increase their calicum contribution.

Unless your chameleon is outside in the natural light all the time, you will need to supplement with D3 as well. This might be once a week or once a month - depends on the brand of supplement you use, amongst other factors.

Vitamins are best provided by offering a variety of insects that are well gutloaded (well fed). Read about gutloading here:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html
This is supplemented by occassional use of a vitamin supplement. Read more about supplements here:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html

I recommend a varied diet - not just one primarily made up of crickets and a few mealworms. This blog entry will provide you with a good list of various feeder insects available, and information about each:
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/74-feeders.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/171-where-buy-feeders-online.html

I feed chameleons that are less than six months old as much as they can consume within about 5 minutes, several times a day. By the time they are pretty much adult size at one year, I am feeding them about 1-3 insects per day.

I get so confused with all the conflicting advice. Yesterday, someone who is well known in the forums advised me that feeding my veiled adult every day is no good. I usually feed her 2-3 insects a day. Once in a while I skip a feeding. Personally, I like feeding her almost every day because I would think if she was hungry in the wild, she would go grab a bug or two if it was possible. Why limit her to every other day .. what are the risks of feeding her every day if there even are any (besides egg binding).

 

[fluxlizard]

I get so confused with all the conflicting advice. Yesterday, someone who is well known in the forums advised me that feeding my veiled adult every day is no good. I usually feed her 2-3 insects a day. Once in a while I skip a feeding. Personally, I like feeding her almost every day because I would think if she was hungry in the wild, she would go grab a bug or two if it was possible. Why limit her to every other day .. what are the risks of feeding her every day if there even are any (besides egg binding).

Personally I feel you need to take advice here as just that- guidelines and advice. We are dealing with living things that are responding to a lot of variables at the same time.

For example- the temperature will effect the metabolic rate of these lizards (which effects their ability to digest and absorb nutrients). Water effects everything (chronic low levels of dehydration that aren't easily detectable by observation for example can have significant contribution to things like gout). Lighting will have an effect (how much vitamin d3 can the lizard creat on it's own for example). How the insects are gutloaded determines how much vitamin content they have before supplements are even used. The brands of supplementation and their ingredients. What is the stress level the lizard is subjected too- that can have big effects as well. And that's just for starters- all of these variables have additional effects other than the ones I'm mentioning in passing, and there are probably other variables at play as well.

There are a lot of variables. And they are all at work in a single equation.

What works in one person's home may not work as well in another situation. It is tempting to try and force a one size fits all solution, but unfortunately the reality is that it is extremely difficult to get all the variables the same in each situation, so the solution is going to come out a little different for each situation.

The best answer is to read all you can, apply what seems logical, observe your animal, tweak as you go along, and pay attention to your experience as you accumulate it, and then repeat starting at read all you can and keep going full circle...

 

[Leilaskeeper]

Personally I feel you need to take advice here as just that- guidelines and advice. We are dealing with living things that are responding to a lot of variables at the same time.

For example- the temperature will effect the metabolic rate of these lizards (which effects their ability to digest and absorb nutrients). Water effects everything (chronic low levels of dehydration that aren't easily detectable by observation for example can have significant contribution to things like gout). Lighting will have an effect (how much vitamin d3 can the lizard creat on it's own for example). How the insects are gutloaded determines how much vitamin content they have before supplements are even used. The brands of supplementation and their ingredients. What is the stress level the lizard is subjected too- that can have big effects as well. And that's just for starters- all of these variables have additional effects other than the ones I'm mentioning in passing, and there are probably other variables at play as well.

There are a lot of variables. And they are all at work in a single equation.

What works in one person's home may not work as well in another situation. It is tempting to try and force a one size fits all solution, but unfortunately the reality is that it is extremely difficult to get all the variables the same in each situation, so the solution is going to come out a little different for each situation.

The best answer is to read all you can, apply what seems logical, observe your animal, tweak as you go along, and pay attention to your experience as you accumulate it, and then repeat starting at read all you can and keep going full circle...

Thanks - that's probably the best advice you could give regarding overall husbandry. I've been reading non-stop about anything and everything on here and following articles that senior members have been posting. I have a good grip on what is important and I am doing what I think seems best for my girls. With all the advice I've been given, I've managed to take an ailing ambilobe panther juvi and bring her back to life! An amazing feat for me, especially considering I'm relatively new at caring for chameleons. If gives me confidence that I'm doing something right.

I've seen people go back and forth on what is right and wrong .. and it makes me question if I'm doing the right thing, but I think you are very right. Apply logic and learn from experience. I still value everyone's opinion - how else would they have one without their own experiences. In the end, it's me caring for my chameleons and I need to judge accordingly on what is right.

Your input is much appreciated. Thanks

 

[sandrachameleon]

I get so confused with all the conflicting advice. Yesterday, someone who is well known in the forums advised me that feeding my veiled adult every day is no good. I usually feed her 2-3 insects a day. Once in a while I skip a feeding. Personally, I like feeding her almost every day because I would think if she was hungry in the wild, she would go grab a bug or two if it was possible. Why limit her to every other day .. what are the risks of feeding her every day if there even are any (besides egg binding).

There are no rules. MOST people do feed every other day, or even every third day. i choose to feed daily, but LESS quantity - so over a month the amounts probably are close to equal. A lot depends on the type and age of the chameleon, its gendre, the temperature, etc. What works for me, might not be the best method for you.
Weighing your chameleon will help you determine if it is holding its weight, gaining or loosing.

You'll notice I list many factors to consider re supplementation in this blog entry: https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/65-supplements.html

 

[dodolah]

I get so confused with all the conflicting advice. Yesterday, someone who is well known in the forums advised me that feeding my veiled adult every day is no good. I usually feed her 2-3 insects a day. Once in a while I skip a feeding. Personally, I like feeding her almost every day because I would think if she was hungry in the wild, she would go grab a bug or two if it was possible. Why limit her to every other day .. what are the risks of feeding her every day if there even are any (besides egg binding).

everyone has answered the question nicely.
I might add a little of common sense why people feed their adult chameleon sparingly. Overweight chameleons have shorter life for almost the same reasons like overweight humans. I would guess in the wild, chameleons might not have the same luxury of finding bugs everyday.
And, I just read a very interesting article somewhere (I think it was in this forum) about how pets in US now faces obesity problem.