The truth about UVI

Brodybreaux25

Chameleon Enthusiast
Credit: Petr Necas


The truth about UVI unleashed

www.chameleons.info

Only few topics in Chamaeleoculture are so controversial such as the debates about UV.
During my most recent expeditions to Africa and Arabia (incl. Socotra), I made many observations and measurements...
Let me share few of them though they are quite obvious...

1. The UVI in lowlands is lower than in the highlands: sea level UVI in Socotra and Oman and Yemen is 8,5-9 while UVI at middle altitudes of above 1000m a.s.l. is 12-14 and UVI of high Kenyan highlands around 2850m a.s.l. is 17: early morning and late afternoon sun (approximatel
2. one hour after sunrise and one hour before sunset) gives just half of these values
3. The UVI is drastically reduced by cloud cover - to 0,5-1 and in rain it is not even measureable.
4. The UVI in the shade in the bush is even under no cloud cover in the lowlands 0,5-1 and in the highlands 1-2.

The influence of UV (320nm-400nm wavelength) on chameleons is both positive and negative.
UV is essential for the chameleons for the metabolism of vitamin D3, Calcium and Magnesium. Without this process running, the animals suffer heavy health problems such as MBD that lead to painful and pitiful bone deformities and even death.
But, UV also damages the DNA and is a strong mutagene, it causes cancer, being cytostatic, it kills cells and has antiseptic properties in killing bacteria and fungi.

Chameleons need UV for the named benefits but it also kills them and causes mutations.

They protect themselves against its negative influence by the production of Melanine in the skin and in the peritoneum - sic! The doses of UV they get are a byproduct of their basking or exposure to sun.

The question is therefore, how much they bask...

The highland (montane) chameleons (such as Trioceros narraioca, ntunte, hoehnelii, jacksonii, sternfeldi; Kinyongia boehmei, tavetana, vosseleri, matschiei; Chamaeleo
calyptratus, chamaeleon orientalis etc.) tend to bask in the morning as a rule to gain the necessary comfortable temperature after a cold night (under 15’C up to freezing point) and during the day, they acquire the warmth from the air around and do not bask at all (unless it is cloudy or cold or after rain - all when it gets “cold”).

The lowland species do ten not to bask at all except after heavy rain. I have observed C. monachus, sleeping at terminal parts of the branches to flee into the shade of the bush or canopy immediately after having been exposed to sun.

So, the chameleons do not as a rule bask as much as we suspect, but stay a vast majority of the time hidden from it, effectively at UVI 0,5 to max 2.

What are the implications in captivity?

There is no necessity to bake them under strong UV sources that can even cause bad skin burns when the animal gets closer as the levels of UVI in the immediate vicinity of the source can exceed the highest measured levels from the wild by several times.

On the other hand, we need to provide UV at lower intensities for the chameleons to feel comfortable and to foster the correct metabolism...

As a backup solution, it is advisable to deliver tiny amounts of vitamin D3 through supplementation.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
Uv skin penetration...
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/skintests.htm

Panther chameleons regulate exposure...
https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.1086/597525?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Lighting for chameleons...
http://www.chameleonnews.com/04AugBeveridge.html
http://www.chameleonnews.com/10JulWeldon.html

Feeding and uvb...calcium absorption....
https://www.zora.uzh.ch/id/eprint/108864/

This one is not just about chameleons...interesting that both UVB and Heat are required for D3.....
http://stichtingherpetofauna.com/si...VB radiation in reptiles and amphibians_0.pdf

Question...
Since Panther females have been shown to regulate their UVB exposure then...Do females with their higher UV requirements at times, have to tolerate higher body temperatures than adult males or can they obtain higher UV exposure but maintain the same body temperature?
 
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nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
Joy, the "proper" UVI for a general cham has seen a massive power creep in the last 2 decades. Back before reptibreeze xls, most chams were in 2ft ish cages, and we had T8 reptisun 5.0 "tropical". It put out like .5 UVI at 4-6", and .25 UVI at 1 foot. And with low dose D3, all the chams were happy. Now the power creep is up to recomending 3-4 UVI at 8-10", and still keeping the same low dose D3...

Maybe somone will come out with a cloud machine that will drop the UVI during the day and they can get 9 UVI for an hour in the morning and evening.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
Joy, the "proper" UVI for a general cham has seen a massive power creep in the last 2 decades. Back before reptibreeze xls, most chams were in 2ft ish cages, and we had T8 reptisun 5.0 "tropical". It put out like .5 UVI at 4-6", and .25 UVI at 1 foot. And with low dose D3, all the chams were happy. Now the power creep is up to recomending 3-4 UVI at 8-10", and still keeping the same low dose D3...

Maybe somone will come out with a cloud machine that will drop the UVI during the day and they can get 9 UVI for an hour in the morning and evening.
Could always just put the uvb bulbs on timers.
 

jamest0o0

Chameleon Enthusiast
Hmm switch between UVB bulbs and daylight LEDs during the day :)
That's pretty much what I do now. I havent been using any uvb though because he gets a few hours in sun a couple times a week. I'll probably add something in the winter, but even when i had uvb he parked himself under stuff to avoid it and didn't move for weeks(brumating)
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
Credit: Petr Necas


The truth about UVI unleashed

www.chameleons.info

Only few topics in Chamaeleoculture are so controversial such as the debates about UV.
During my most recent expeditions to Africa and Arabia (incl. Socotra), I made many observations and measurements...
Let me share few of them though they are quite obvious...

1. The UVI in lowlands is lower than in the highlands: sea level UVI in Socotra and Oman and Yemen is 8,5-9 while UVI at middle altitudes of above 1000m a.s.l. is 12-14 and UVI of high Kenyan highlands around 2850m a.s.l. is 17: early morning and late afternoon sun (approximatel
2. one hour after sunrise and one hour before sunset) gives just half of these values
3. The UVI is drastically reduced by cloud cover - to 0,5-1 and in rain it is not even measureable.
4. The UVI in the shade in the bush is even under no cloud cover in the lowlands 0,5-1 and in the highlands 1-2.

The influence of UV (320nm-400nm wavelength) on chameleons is both positive and negative.
UV is essential for the chameleons for the metabolism of vitamin D3, Calcium and Magnesium. Without this process running, the animals suffer heavy health problems such as MBD that lead to painful and pitiful bone deformities and even death.
But, UV also damages the DNA and is a strong mutagene, it causes cancer, being cytostatic, it kills cells and has antiseptic properties in killing bacteria and fungi.

Chameleons need UV for the named benefits but it also kills them and causes mutations.

They protect themselves against its negative influence by the production of Melanine in the skin and in the peritoneum - sic! The doses of UV they get are a byproduct of their basking or exposure to sun.

The question is therefore, how much they bask...

The highland (montane) chameleons (such as Trioceros narraioca, ntunte, hoehnelii, jacksonii, sternfeldi; Kinyongia boehmei, tavetana, vosseleri, matschiei; Chamaeleo
calyptratus, chamaeleon orientalis etc.) tend to bask in the morning as a rule to gain the necessary comfortable temperature after a cold night (under 15’C up to freezing point) and during the day, they acquire the warmth from the air around and do not bask at all (unless it is cloudy or cold or after rain - all when it gets “cold”).

The lowland species do ten not to bask at all except after heavy rain. I have observed C. monachus, sleeping at terminal parts of the branches to flee into the shade of the bush or canopy immediately after having been exposed to sun.

So, the chameleons do not as a rule bask as much as we suspect, but stay a vast majority of the time hidden from it, effectively at UVI 0,5 to max 2.

What are the implications in captivity?

There is no necessity to bake them under strong UV sources that can even cause bad skin burns when the animal gets closer as the levels of UVI in the immediate vicinity of the source can exceed the highest measured levels from the wild by several times.

On the other hand, we need to provide UV at lower intensities for the chameleons to feel comfortable and to foster the correct metabolism...

As a backup solution, it is advisable to deliver tiny amounts of vitamin D3 through supplementation.

Sorry to bump an old thread, but it isn't that old. And it's on topic of something I have been aiming to explore, and some convo has taken place already here about it.

Agree with Petr, on some of the thoughts, however this sticks out to me.

"The influence of UV (320nm-400nm wavelength) on chameleons is both positive and negative.
UV is essential for the chameleons for the metabolism of vitamin D3"

Vitamin D3 synthesis does not happen in the 320nm+ range, that's not even UVB it's UVA.

Vitamin D3 production happens in the 280-320 range, with its peak being at 290-300, and 294 being the highest in the range. 320+ destroys Vitamin D3 not create it.

Not really what I wanted to talk about, it was just good to point that out for the sake of correct information. Links avaible, if anyone would like.


Joy, the "proper" UVI for a general cham has seen a massive power creep in the last 2 decades. Back before reptibreeze xls, most chams were in 2ft ish cages, and we had T8 reptisun 5.0 "tropical". It put out like .5 UVI at 4-6", and .25 UVI at 1 foot. And with low dose D3, all the chams were happy. Now the power creep is up to recomending 3-4 UVI at 8-10", and still keeping the same low dose D3...

Maybe somone will come out with a cloud machine that will drop the UVI during the day and they can get 9 UVI for an hour in the morning and evening.
As I have just seen this today, why are we moving to Zone III exactly? Do you know by any chance? Chameleons are Ferguson Zone II animals in every paper I can find yet we are seeing Zone III be recommended?

Anyway, if we were to over UVB for a few hours, or to dim UVB and increase it as the day progresses, what do you think would be the best way? To follow locale index? And match it (if dimming of course).

To triple Zone III for 1/3 the time? To Triple Zone 3 even though that zone is for Desert species and from all studies I have seen have no business being used on a chameleon? Or do we triple Zone 2? For 1/3 of the day?

I don't know if there is a way to judge the results that wouldn't result in MBD from failure?

Also I know fear of MBD is a major issue. However you said, that Chams were happy with Zone 1 and D3 supplements.

So why did we jump to Zone 2 (their proper Zone) and still use supplements are they still needed at zone 2?

Now we are jumping to Zone 3, and still using them? Ferguson's entire theory was that with proper Zone UVI, we don't need supplements. But we are still using them and now moving zones? Because what does an entire team of herpetologists know right?

For those not familiar with Ferguson Zones, Panther Chameleons land in Intermediate Zone 2. This means they want a Minimum of 1.1, and a Maximum of 3.0 this doesn't mean they should have 3.0 a foot down into the cage, on the branch were a 3/4 inch tall Cham will sit in 3.5 UVI with it's back. It means that 3.0 is the absolute Maximum, and no part of your animal should really be exposed to more. Not saying that's right or wrong, just stating what the Ferguson Zone is.

Which also lines up with Petrs writing here. 1.1-2.0 at the basking branch, would be perfect. As at the top of the animal it would be much closer to 2.5ish most likely. So Petrs points are on Par with the Ferguson Zone 2 intermediate.

Then we have this,
Screenshot_20200125-161753.png


So we can see they are exposed to very high amounts, however we don't really know from this if they shy away from it. So maybe ignore the cloud for a min, as it shows a dip.

So do we ramp up as the day progresses and then peak where? Peak at 15? Or peak at 7? Peaking at 7 would still be more than double their Ferguson Zone, for a few hours, and then the dips fill in the rest.

If we were to follow the same logic with flip on, flip on for 4-5 hours at 7? Or flip on for 1 hour at 3.5 and 3 hours at 7? And in all cases remove D3 from the equation?

Has anyone seen a case of a cham with a T5 that isn't given D3 get MBD? The T5s are still fairly new tech, and I am wondering has MBD with a good T5 that has been verified working at the right levels still had given an animal MBD, or are we just doing with D3 because that's what we have always done, in spite of the fact the bulbs are 3x stronger.
 
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nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
There have been several experiments with raising a cham with 3.0 UVI and no MBD. This is kinda why the manufactures are recommending 3.0 UVI and no D3 supplements.

Facts are facts.
We know a T8 5.0 and the D3 twice a week works.
Im having great success with 1.5 UVI(fresh then changing at .8 ish after a few years) and ultra low dose D3 sticky tongue indoor
I have not seen a case of 3.0 UVI and no D3 yet, outside of the podcast
We have seen several cases of 10.0/12% and D3 LoD suppliments causing edema in a few months of use

But the power creep is real. Im not sure how these 3.0 folk are going to handle the last 6-9 months of bulb life when they are reading 1.8-2.0 and wondering if their chams bones are going to go to mush. So i have seen several folk over shoot, and recommend 4 or a little higher, so that in a yea its down to 3.0 or a little lower.


With time maybe a new gradient will show up, and we will have a small 4.0 UVI spot bulb on one side of the cage, and a 1.0 UVI linear to blanket the rest of the cage. Im still not convinced that chams know that the higher in the cage the more UVB they get, that doesnt work in the wild. In the wild the hotter the light, the more UVB.
 
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skoram

Established Member
Joy, the "proper" UVI for a general cham has seen a massive power creep in the last 2 decades. Back before reptibreeze xls, most chams were in 2ft ish cages, and we had T8 reptisun 5.0 "tropical". It put out like .5 UVI at 4-6", and .25 UVI at 1 foot. And with low dose D3, all the chams were happy. Now the power creep is up to recomending 3-4 UVI at 8-10", and still keeping the same low dose D3...

Maybe somone will come out with a cloud machine that will drop the UVI during the day and they can get 9 UVI for an hour in the morning and evening.
This may be possible sooner than you think with UVB LEDs entering the market soon. I could set something up right with UVB LEDs that mimics cloud clover if I wanted to spend $60 per diode ...
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
This may be possible sooner than you think with UVB LEDs entering the market soon. I could set something up right with UVB LEDs that mimics cloud clover if I wanted to spend $60 per diode ...
But what if its a 10 watt diode :)
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
There have been several experiments with raising a cham with 3.0 UVI and no MBD. This is kinda why the manufactures are recommending 3.0 UVI and no D3 supplements.

Facts are facts.
We know a T8 5.0 and the D3 twice a week works.
Im having great success with 1.5 UVI(fresh then changing at .8 ish after a few years) and ultra low dose D3 sticky tongue indoor
I have not seen a case of 3.0 UVI and no D3 yet, outside of the podcast
We have seen several cases of 10.0/12% and D3 LoD suppliments causing edema in a few months of use

But the power creep is real. Im not sure how these 3.0 folk are going to handle the last 6-9 months of bulb life when they are reading 1.8-2.0 and wondering if their chams bones are going to go to mush. So i have seen several folk over shoot, and recommend 4 or a little higher, so that in a yea its down to 3.0 or a little lower.


With time maybe a new gradient will show up, and we will have a small 4.0 UVI spot bulb on one side of the cage, and a 1.0 UVI linear to blanket the rest of the cage. Im still not convinced that chams know that the higher in the cage the more UVB they get, that doesnt work in the wild. In the wild the hotter the light, the more UVB.

You bring up some very good points, and I really want to try some of these ideas out.

I fully agree with "the hotter in the wild, the more UVB" I have taken pause to that very fact lately on a few articles. We are now seeing people saying to turn the basking light OFF at 10am. However, its not even hot yet at 10am??? So I am thoroughly perplexed as to that thought process.

So what do you think, about the dimming? Or increasing UVI throughout the day, by whatever means, as well as doing so with the heat. Of course now we have to get keepers to stop flipping basking lights on and off, and get them properly on dimming, whether with dimming stats or timed dimmers, what ever the case may be.

I am currently working on just this, as to recently finding out that the DHP, isnt all I thought it cracked up to be (Its giving still the wrong type of Infared). Halogen basking is looking more like the better answer. It will also fill the spectrum's in that need to be filled, from the LEDs lacking. Thats assuming the Infared LEDs do not produce heat as they are said to. Of which I still really dont know, the intricacies of those how they work or how we would best utilize them. Its my current goal to figure that out, before coming back to the UV aspects.



This may be possible sooner than you think with UVB LEDs entering the market soon. I could set something up right with UVB LEDs that mimics cloud clover if I wanted to spend $60 per diode ...
We can today, you dont leds for that. UVB flo bulbs can be dimmed from 1% to 100% in 1% increments. We would need someone to jump in and test it, with various solar meters, that could get detailed results of what happens at every dimming point.

This could also lead to prolonged bulb life. If we say as Night did, and say 7 is double or even 3x that of what they should be getting, and we run the full 7 via 2 6% bulbs, for 4 hours a day, we just tripled the life of the light. However then again the dimming function reduces the light of the light, not the UVB output of the light, but the light it self to remain a light.

They are 50 a diode now, and without actually having them in hand and testing them thoroughly we really dont know much we would need.


But what if its a 10 watt diode :)
Not even close lol, they run at 3v at 30ma's, actually finding a way to run them and dim them is going to be a challenge of its own, those things use next to no power at all. How much UVI we actually get for that, I dont know, it may be find able, but I haven't yet.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
There have been several experiments with raising a cham with 3.0 UVI and no MBD. This is kinda why the manufactures are recommending 3.0 UVI and no D3 supplements.

Facts are facts.
We know a T8 5.0 and the D3 twice a week works.
Im having great success with 1.5 UVI(fresh then changing at .8 ish after a few years) and ultra low dose D3 sticky tongue indoor
I have not seen a case of 3.0 UVI and no D3 yet, outside of the podcast
We have seen several cases of 10.0/12% and D3 LoD suppliments causing edema in a few months of use

But the power creep is real. Im not sure how these 3.0 folk are going to handle the last 6-9 months of bulb life when they are reading 1.8-2.0 and wondering if their chams bones are going to go to mush. So i have seen several folk over shoot, and recommend 4 or a little higher, so that in a yea its down to 3.0 or a little lower.


With time maybe a new gradient will show up, and we will have a small 4.0 UVI spot bulb on one side of the cage, and a 1.0 UVI linear to blanket the rest of the cage. Im still not convinced that chams know that the higher in the cage the more UVB they get, that doesnt work in the wild. In the wild the hotter the light, the more UVB.

And here is the results of this UVI power creep.
2020-01-29 13_07_29-(2) Panther chameleon (furcifer pardalis).png


To me that looks like a Eggbound Animal, that has obvious gular edema. To the wonderful facebook group that is MBD and needs D3 Liquid yesterday...

Oh, ya this person has a Reptisun 10.0 4 inches from the animal 12 hours a day. Gular Edema? Na it cant be hypervitaminosis D, it cant be eggbound, your not using enough UVB, move that light to the side so the animal can get more..... Nevermind the fact your pumping this animal with UVI of at least 6 12 hours a day.... Even though, there is nothing blocking between the UVB anywhere in the cage, the cham cant escape it as is, but lets add some more, oh and give it Supp D3 stat......

Someone finally did point those issues out and say IDK if this is MBD, or rather just MBD. Then mentioned what I just did, and right after the admin posts on there about MBD some more, SMH.....
 
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GoodKarma19

Chameleon Enthusiast
And here is the results of this UVI power creep.
View attachment 257369

To me that looks like a Eggbound Animal, that has obvious gular edema. To the wonderful facebook group that is MBD and needs D3 Liquid yesterday...

Oh, ya this person has a Reptisun 10.0 4 inches from the animal 12 hours a day. Gular Edema? Na it cant be hypervitaminosis D, it cant be eggbound, your not using enough UVB, move that light to the side so the animal can get more..... Even though, there is nothing blocking between the UVB anywhere in the cage, the cham cant escape it as is, but lets add some more, oh and give it Supp D3 stat......

Someone finally did point those issues out and say IDK if this is MBD, or just MBD. And mentioned what I just did, and right after the admin posts on there about MBD some more, SMH.....
Hypervitaminosis is so often misdiagnosed as something else... it's scary. This is the danger of having such powerful UVB lights, particularly in combination with D3 supplementation.
 

DeremensisBlue

Chameleon Enthusiast
Site Sponsor
Hypervitaminosis is so often misdiagnosed as something else... it's scary. This is the danger of having such powerful UVB lights, particularly in combination with D3 supplementation.
The body stops producing D3 from UVB when it has enough. This is why we want to use UVB instead of dietary D3. So giving higher levels of UVB will not give an overdose of D3. Only giving too much dietary D3 will do that. The danger of ultra high UVB comes from damage to the cells and organs.
 

DeremensisBlue

Chameleon Enthusiast
Site Sponsor
And here is the results of this UVI power creep.
View attachment 257369

To me that looks like a Eggbound Animal, that has obvious gular edema. To the wonderful facebook group that is MBD and needs D3 Liquid yesterday...

Oh, ya this person has a Reptisun 10.0 4 inches from the animal 12 hours a day. Gular Edema? Na it cant be hypervitaminosis D, it cant be eggbound, your not using enough UVB, move that light to the side so the animal can get more..... Nevermind the fact your pumping this animal with UVI of at least 6 12 hours a day.... Even though, there is nothing blocking between the UVB anywhere in the cage, the cham cant escape it as is, but lets add some more, oh and give it Supp D3 stat......

Someone finally did point those issues out and say IDK if this is MBD, or rather just MBD. Then mentioned what I just did, and right after the admin posts on there about MBD some more, SMH.....
What do you think this is and how does UVB play into your analysis? What do you see here that is a result of too high of UVB?
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
What do you think this is and how does UVB play into your analysis? What do you see here that is a result of too high of UVB?
The gular edema, on the neck. Which has been cropping up around here more and more frequently, from people using super strong UVB bulbs and still supplementing with D3.
 

cyberlocc

Chameleon Enthusiast
What does UVB have to do with gular edema?
I just said, search the latest posts. We have had alot of cases of this happening since the use 12.0s has been being touted.

People are using 10.0s, and 12%s while providing D3 supplements, and coming back with gular edemas alot lately, almost every case we have seen in the last year of gular edemas have been using 10.0s and supplement with D3.

Also thats the actual definition of it lol,

"Gular edema is a common clinical sign of organ dysfunction in chameleons. Excess vitamin D3 supplementation -- especially in combination with calcium -- may result in organ toxicity. Metastatic calcification and gout are common results. Gular edema is a common clinical sign."

Oh and as to what I think, I said already. Egg bound and Gular Edema, I think the back legs are just a bad angle,though there may be some MBD going on as well, and maybe thats why the poster upgraded to a 10.0 bulb and decided to place it a few inches from the animal.

Gingero just did the testing, a 10.0 at 4.5 inches from the animal is like 6+ UVI through screen.

I am not sure what came first, the chicken or the egg as it were, and if this caused what I think is egg binding. However I do not think this animals spine is twisted from MDB, or that it isnt getting enough D3.
 
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DeremensisBlue

Chameleon Enthusiast
Site Sponsor
I just said, search the latest posts. We have had alot of cases of this happening since the use 12.0s has been being touted.

People are using 10.0s, and 12%s while providing D3 supplements, and coming back with gular edemas alot lately, almost every case we have seen in the last year of gular edemas have been using 10.0s and supplement with D3.

Also thats the actual definition of it lol,

"Gular edema is a common clinical sign of organ dysfunction in chameleons. Excess vitamin D3 supplementation -- especially in combination with calcium -- may result in organ toxicity. Metastatic calcification and gout are common results. Gular edema is a common clinical sign. "
We use UVB because it engages the body's internal stop measures to maintain a certain level. If it has vitamin D3 from diet it will not make it from UVB. If we provide all the D3 needs from diet then the body will not make D3 from UVB. The danger of overdose is if we give more than the body can take through diet.

gular edema can be produced by Vitamin A which is now on the increase of use as well. We don't even know all the causes of edema. So you are making quite a leap of logic attaching edema to higher UVB.

The biggest challenge in convincing the Facebook mob that T5s are, on one hand a great tool, but that they have to be used carefully because of the strength near the bulb, is that there are no direct connections of health problems with too high of UVB beyond the study Dr. Ferguson did showing a decrease in fecundity in female panthers. Beyond that we can't put our finger on any particular effect of too high of UVB other than Veiled Chameleons turning their insides black to protect their organs from UVB. I'd love it if anyone could produce a connection between too high of UVB and a health risk because I am 100% confident it is there, but you can't just take one case off Facebook and say it is excess UVB. You get edema and hypervitaminosis D3 from excessive supplementation - not UVB. Unless you can show any evidence that the body cannot measure the levels of D3 from diet. If so then I'd love to see that. Experimentally, we have panthers that are getting close to what we can figure is complete D3 from diet showing no problems when their UVB is changed from T8 to T5. It is hardly a conclusive scientific study, but is a clue that it isn't the UVB.

I firmly believe that we should not be giving excessive UVB, but we also have to be accurate when considering the cause of issues.

This case may be too much Vitamin D3, but that would be a supplementation issue, not UVB. Unless you have some other insight?
Bill
 
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