Clarification on recommended UVI

[Texas Ranger]

What guide are you referring to? Again, we all should do what we feel comfortable with but I'm pretty sure this guide you're mentioning is outdated info. It can be hard to accept change, I get that and you should do what is and has been working for you but I don't think it benefits the hobby in anyway to suggest something that the manf and/or company producing the product don't actually suggest. They know their products alot better then us laymens.

You can look up/ask multiple manufacturers and 3rd party bulb testing companies and the standard still applies. Before testing of the bulb a 100hr burn in is still done so it is not outdated info. More of a standard to get a true reliable reading out of a bulb when being tested. Just 3 months ago I had a bad UVB liner bulb that tested way off specs and was brand new and of a popular brand so to me it’s a quality and safety measure I think is important for my animals

 

[regal81455]

You can look up/ask multiple manufacturers and 3rd party bulb testing companies and the standard still applies. Before testing of the bulb a 100hr burn in is still done so it is not outdated info. More of a standard to get a true reliable reading out of a bulb when being tested. Just 3 months ago I had a bad UVB liner bulb that tested way off specs and was brand new and of a popular brand so to me it’s a quality and safety measure I think is important for my animals

The last statement is a fair one but this can be checked within minutes with a meter if you have one at your disposal. No need to wait 100hrs to do so though.

And I did check, I even posted a white paper from NEMA about the subject, reaffirmed, 3yrs ago. It specifically states "The opinions expressed in this statement represent the consensus views of the member companies of the Lighting Systems Division of the National Electrical Manufacturers Association. The members of the Lighting Systems Division manufacture traditional technology lamps and ballasts, light-emitting diodes(LEDs and OLEDs), LED lamps and modules, LED drivers and power supplies, luminaires, lighting controls and management systems"

I have not verified but I would be shocked if OSRAM, Sylvania, & Philips aren't included in these member companies.

In that paper, they state "NEMA fluorescent lamp manufacturers recommend that whenever flicker or instability is present, or, to reduce possible flicker or instability when new dimming systems are commissioned, lamps should be operated at the ballast’s maximum light output setting overnight (approximately 12 hours)."

That was current 3 yrs ago. so at a minimum, wouldn't you consider taking this advice?

 

[Texas Ranger]

The last statement is a fair one but this can be checked within minutes with a meter if you have one at your disposal. No need to wait 100hrs to do so though.

Not true for me. The last bulb that failed on me was 6 days in on a 8 day 100hr. Burn in.

 

[regal81455]

So is your thread coming from the other thread in which you told someone that their brand new cham was climbing the top screen due to incorrect UVI or temps?

I guess I am confused at what you are wanting to get out of this thread.. If Fergusons chart says 3-7 and they are stating a 3 UVI why would you want to provide even more? When it has been found that a 3 UVI is perfectly sufficient and provides them with long healthy lives. More does not equal better. Look at bee pollen. When provided in excess you can see issues of edema develop but when provided in moderate levels in a supplement or in a gutload you do not see the same issues.


But this would not be ok. For babies and young chams that screen climb constantly on the top you would then be putting them in overexposure levels for long periods of time. This is why breeders always lift fixtures up off the top of the cage. Even these numbers are much higher than the Ferguson zone recommendations.

I think it comes down to what is being recommended has been found to not only be safe but provides chams with the means to live long healthy lives in captivity in these small cages we put them into. It has already been stated by hobby leaders that veileds and Panthers can handle safely up to a 6 uvi. But again why provide more if a 3 works the way they need it to?

To some extents, yes, because I don't subscribe to 3-4 being the end all be all, this is where basking should be.

I understand, more isn't always better.

You said "If Fergusons chart says 3-7 and they are stating a 3 UVI why would you want to provide even more?"

Who is they?

I'll turn this around and ask you why wouldn't you want to provide what is considered "safe" right up to the max and let the animal decide what is right for them at any given moment? You don't know any better than I or the next person from one cham to the next what is needed or desired.

If we don't question our leaders; then we're all just followers. Sorry, that's not who I am or ever will be.

 

[regal81455]

Not true for me. The last bulb that failed on me was 6 days in on a 8 day 100hr. Burn in.

Two questions.

1. Why wouldn't you just run it 24hrs straight for 4 days if that is what you are doing? Safety concern I'm guessing?

2. So based on what you say above, if it's ok after 100hrs, then it must be ok, there's no chance it would've failed a day after burn in? That after a 100hrs you've somehow reached some magic marker and all will be ok? Why not just test it daily then to confirm things are good 100% of the time? I mean, I can test a car's breaks over and over again but someday, when needed, I have to just be willing to accept they will work as intended.

 

[nightanole]

Cries in 90's vita-lites that put out .2 UVI and that was considered high.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Two questions.

1. Why wouldn't you just run it 24hrs straight for 4 days if that is what you are doing? Safety concern I'm guessing?

2. So based on what you say above, if it's ok after 100hrs, then it must be ok, there's no chance it would've failed a day after burn in? That after a 100hrs you've somehow reached some magic marker and all will be ok? Why not just test it daily then to confirm things are good 100% of the time? I mean, I can test a car's breaks over and over again but someday, when needed, I have to just be willing to accept they will work as intended.

1. Yes safety concerns

2. I test my bulbs every week. Over the years I have bulbs be good on average a year. But I have had many go 2 months as well as 3 years good. I have noticed in the first 100hrs you can usually tell if a bulb is under preforming or over preforming to an extreme. They generally stay consistent after just a few days but These are man made products I am sure QC is done but mistakes can and do happen.

 

[nightanole]

Two questions.

1. Why wouldn't you just run it 24hrs straight for 4 days if that is what you are doing? Safety concern I'm guessing?

2. So based on what you say above, if it's ok after 100hrs, then it must be ok, there's no chance it would've failed a day after burn in? That after a 100hrs you've somehow reached some magic marker and all will be ok? Why not just test it daily then to confirm things are good 100% of the time? I mean, I can test a car's breaks over and over again but someday, when needed, I have to just be willing to accept they will work as intended.

Bathtub scale. If it doesnt break in 100 hours, its high odds its not going to break in 2000 hours. And after 100 hours, its UVI is going to be settled and be reliable for 2000 hours.

Hell back in the day when we had plasma tvs' we would put them on white eye bleed mode for 100 hours just to burn off the first 5-10% of phospur to cut down on the image burn issue.

 

[Beman]

To some extents, yes, because I don't subscribe to 3-4 being the end all be all, this is where basking should be.

I understand, more isn't always better.

You said "If Fergusons chart says 3-7 and they are stating a 3 UVI why would you want to provide even more?"

Who is they?

I'll turn this around and ask you why wouldn't you want to provide what is considered "safe" right up to the max and let the animal decide what is right for them at any given moment? You don't know any better than I or the next person from one cham to the next what is needed or desired.

If we don't question our leaders; then we're all just followers. Sorry, that's not who I am or ever will be.

To put it simply, I choose not to put my chameleons at risk when we have a range that is perfectly effective for their needs. If others want to push the limits and see how their animals do then that is their choice. But this is an animals life and I am not going to potentially endanger it.

And in turn I am not going to recommend to others to try something that is not proven within the hobby to be safe much less something that is needed. In this forum it is our responsibility to share correct and proven information with the brand new keepers that come here. So that they are able to successfully keep these animals not only alive but thriving. I will never recommend someone put a cham under an 11 uvi just because that is what they might be exposed to in their natural environment. When the conditions of what they receive in the wild is not even close to what we can provide in a 2x2x4ft enclosure or even a 2x4x4ft.

Just like I would never suggest a Veiled owner not provide water so many months of the year because in their natural environment they go through a dry period that kills them off. We are replicating the good from nature that gives them a life where they thrive in captivity.

You say provide what is safe right up to the max and let the animal decide... If this was the case we would not see so many thermal burns in the forum. Because using your line of thinking the animal should be able to decide that they are much too hot and move away from the heat rather than sit there and fry their skin.

I do not consider myself a follower because I have learned from others in this hobby who have not only succeeded in keeping chameleon but breeding them under these guidelines. I would rather learn from those before me and understand the concepts than to try to reinvent the system.

So I think if you choose to throw a 12% bulb on your cage and have your cham within 5 inches of it being exposed to levels that are considered over exposure then that is your right. I do not think this is something you should be suggesting to others within this forum to do however.

 

[regal81455]

You two must have a high aversion to risk lol - do you stress test everything you buy before placing in service?

From where I come from and my background, you place things in service and then replace / remove when required. We leave the stress testing to the builders & manufacturers and follow the guidance provided for proper installation and placement into service.

I had a very nice pioneer plasma back in the day ( actually just removed it from service about 3 months ago as it no longer fit the space we had it in ) and never once worried about burn. I must've logged hours on that thing with static images. Never had an issue, maybe I got lucky but I was well aware of the potential while doing so. We all have different experiences and it's the only thing we can rely on but when the only experiences you see documented are the bad ones I have to wonder how many good there was leading up to that one failure?

I totally get you guys and your approach. I want you to know that.

Back to subject though. Why can't anyone give me a solid reason why we shouldn't give our chameleons the opportunity to see the max on Fergusons basking scale(s) as has been documented all over and let the creature decide. The only answer I keep hearing is because "they" say this is what is safe. Safe doesn't mean best. I don't know who they is and Ok, great but how can we improve upon it? IMO with Lumenize now on the market approaches and norms are going to change pretty rapidly but only time will tell.

 

[regal81455]

To put it simply, I choose not to put my chameleons at risk when we have a range that is perfectly effective for their needs. If others want to push the limits and see how their animals do then that is their choice. But this is an animals life and I am not going to potentially endanger it.

Agreed - wouldn't do so either. What have I done to suggest that somehow if my animal looked to be suffering from the effects of UVB of any level, that I wouldn't implement changes to correct those symptoms?

And in turn I am not going to recommend to others to try something that is not proven within the hobby to be safe much less something that is needed. In this forum it is our responsibility to share correct and proven information with the brand new keepers that come here. So that they are able to successfully keep these animals not only alive but thriving. I will never recommend someone put a cham under an 11 uvi just because that is what they might be exposed to in their natural environment. When the conditions of what they receive in the wild is not even close to what we can provide in a 2x2x4ft enclosure or even a 2x4x4ft.

Never said that either. Asked why we shouldn't be following the Ferguson scale at it's face value which states "basking 2.9 - 7.4". I'm asking why we don't provide 7 at the screen level, therefore providing the full gradient from 7.4 down?

Just like I would never suggest a Veiled owner not provide water so many months of the year because in their natural environment they go through a dry period that kills them off. We are replicating the good from nature that gives them a life where they thrive in captivity.

Don't think I ever said anything like this so not sure where this is coming from?

You say provide what is safe right up to the max and let the animal decide... If this was the case we would not see so many thermal burns in the forum. Because using your line of thinking the animal should be able to decide that they are much too hot and move away from the heat rather than sit there and fry their skin.

UVB and physical heat from a bulb are two completely different things. We're not talking about thermal burns here.

I do not consider myself a follower because I have learned from others in this hobby who have not only succeeded in keeping chameleon but breeding them under these guidelines. I would rather learn from those before me and understand the concepts than to try to reinvent the system.

Definition of follower from Merriam Webster: one that follows the opinions or teachings of another --- no offense but you might not consider yourself one but by definition you are if what you stated above is true.

So I think if you choose to throw a 12% bulb on your cage and have your cham within 5 inches of it being exposed to levels that are considered over exposure then that is your right. I do not think this is something you should be suggesting to others within this forum to do however.

Never said anything on about % of bulb or distance from it. What I said is should we be considering if 7 at the screen top is what we really should be shooting for and then allowing the creature to move within it's enviroment to it's preferred micro-climate within. I don't believe I suggested to anyone anywhere anything that would be harmful to any animal. I raised a question. You keep saying "you", meaning me so I would presume that is what was meant. This forum is a place for people of all walks to get together and provide info and bounce ideas of one another. When ideas don't align with the norm, does that mean they are unwarranted of asking?

What you think is just that, what you think. We all can have opinions, aligned or differing. You do not have to spend time on this subject if you don't wish to. Others might. What makes your way the right way? It's just the way that has been working. Doesn't mean it's the best way. There were ways that worked back 20yrs ago too but they were found over time not to be ideal and with changing tech, research, and experiences these ways morphed and evolved too. If we all sat still, would that happen? Are there only a handful of people on this planet qualified to suggest or question something?

 

[Texas Ranger]

Back to subject though. Why can't anyone give me a solid reason why we shouldn't give our chameleons the opportunity to see the max on Fergusons basking scale(s) as has been documented all over and let the creature decide. The only answer I keep hearing is because "they" say this is what is safe. Safe doesn't mean best. I don't know who they is and Ok, great but how can we improve upon it? IMO with Lumenize now on the market approaches and norms are going to change pretty rapidly but only time will tell.

I thought I was explained my thought on it very well. Not just saying what is safe. Again you are comparing our perfect sun spectrum UVA/LUX/UVB/UVC and infrared rays the whole spectrum of what we see as light to a man made product that produces just a small portion of the spectrum and not even comparable to the sun really because it doesn’t have them all or in the exact scale of the sun. So to do so in extremes in a indoor environment where no one has the potential to add or offer a 100% of the suns full spectrum and variables including atmospheric devastation of the rays that changes by the minute or natural wide open spaces. So yes indoors I would always advise caution over to much. As far as outdoor keeping well as long as you can offer as many micro climates as possible with nature being your goal than outside I can see that potential as long has the environment is large enough and enough reading were taken to know I have many different micro climates the chameleon can choose from.

Hell we can’t even match LUX output of the sun in an indoor cage. But the concerning factor you are worried about is how much more radiation I can put in the enclosure. Doesn’t make a lot of sense.

 

[Texas Ranger]

Along with a more important discussion. What about all the missing UVA spectrum a reptiles 4th eye cone uses to see things correctly. That is also mostly missing in our indoor lighting. That imo seems to be a much more concerning topic. Over 3-4 uvb index that has been proven to at least work at creating the metabolic cycle that’s needed to produce D3 threw blood work.

 

[regal81455]

But the concerning factor you are worried about is how much more radiation I can put in the enclosure. Doesn’t make a lot of sense.

It isn't about how much more, it's about what's best. We are now able to provide a ramping up of the uvi in the enclosure up to some max and then back down. We could set the max of 7 as suggested by the Ferguson scale at the tippy top of the enclosure at or around noon, where a chameleon isn't going to spend a ton of its time because we haven't made it easy for them to reach that level and allow for a more natural gradient of uvi. Shoot my readings were 7 at the top of the enclosure before Lumenize, based on all the suggested light placements with a 6% so I don't see how this is much different. Now 7 would only be attainable for a few hours throughout the day if the chameleon is screen climbing so in a lot of ways I'm lowering the amount they will receive but I've given him the ability to access if he truly wants it.

I think you must all think I'm saying let's make the branch that they stand on 7 or something? That is not at all what I've been saying. Is that what you're reading?

 

[regal81455]

Along with a more important discussion. What about all the missing UVA spectrum a reptiles 4th eye cone uses to see things correctly. That is also mostly missing in our indoor lighting. That imo seems to be a much more concerning topic. Over 3-4 uvb index that has been proven to at least work at creating the metabolic cycle that’s needed to produce D3 threw blood work.

Very well could be but this isn't a discussion on UVA, this is a discussion on UVB. If you want to discuss that topic we should start another thread perhaps?

 

[Texas Ranger]

It isn't about how much more, it's about what's best. We are now able to provide a ramping up of the uvi in the enclosure up to some max and then back down. We could set the max of 7 as suggested by the Ferguson scale at the tippy top of the enclosure at or around noon, where a chameleon isn't going to spend a ton of its time because we haven't made it easy for them to reach that level and allow for a more natural gradient of uvi. Shoot my readings were 7 at the top of the enclosure before Lumenize, based on all the suggested light placements with a 6% so I don't see how this is much different. Now 7 would only be attainable for a few hours throughout the day if the chameleon is screen climbing so in a lot of ways I'm lowering the amount they will receive but I've given him the ability to access if he truly wants it.

I think you must all think I'm saying let's make the branch that they stand on 7 or something? That is not at all what I've been saying. Is that what you're reading?

Very well could be but this isn't a discussion on UVA, this is a discussion on UVB. If you want to discuss that topic we should start another thread perhaps?

These are all in the same so if you are wanting to let’s say offer a 7 at the screen. The animal isn’t getting the full picture as in heat, LUX,UVA and so on. The spectrum is incomplete so there in turn the animal with basic instincts does not understand that that light is only giving off high levels of uvb. Same reason a cham will burn its self under a basking bulb. Because the information to the body coming from a basking lamp is missing all the other elements and the body is instinctively doing its thing not understanding what is missing.

 

[nightanole]

Honestly at this point im not sure what we are discussing

If we wanted to mimic perfect chameleon land, we would end up with chams eating the least nutritious flying bugs and 95% of them dying off after six months during the dry season. And if that doesnt take them out, yemen has plenty of times where "get low or get frozen" weather kicks in.

But id be perfectly find with like a led 1" beam that did uvi 15 in the cage. But other than that im going to stick to mimicking the spots they hang out in most of the day, which is shade with very little basking/sunning opportunities.


And yes im perfectly fine with a cham hanging from the screen directly under a T8 bulb for extended periods and im sure the uvi might be near 10. But i think they do that more for getting warm vs "must have mooore uvb". Back when i had my anole/day gecko tank, it was party under the bulb, but the bulb was a T8 so it was about 4x less powerful but still put out plenty of heat. Id be more worried about a T5HO (even if non uvb bulb) cooking little toes

 

[Texas Ranger]

Honestly at this point im not sure what we are discussing

If we wanted to mimic perfect chameleon land, we would end up with chams eating the least nutritious flying bugs and 95% of them dying off after six months during the dry season. And if that doesnt take them out, yemen has plenty of times where "get low or get frozen" weather kicks in.

But id be perfectly find with like a led 1" beam that did uvi 15 in the cage. But other than that im going to stick to mimicking the spots they hang out in most of the day, which is shade with very little basking/sunning opportunities.


And yes im perfectly fine with a cham hanging from the screen directly under a T8 bulb for extended periods and im sure the uvi might be near 10. But i think they do that more for getting warm vs "must have mooore uvb". Back when i had my anole/day gecko tank, it was party under the bulb, but the bulb was a T8 so it was about 4x less powerful but still put out plenty of heat. Id be more worried about a T5HO (even if non uvb bulb) cooking little toes

Exactly my point. If at any point of the light spectrum is extreme it’s missing part of the information to the animal. My understanding is through blood work that a uvi of 3-4 seems to be a good area because it is allowing the production of D3 in the body and we are not seeing MBD. I remember the T8 days. My chams did really well under them and lived long full lives. Even though I had to buy a bulb every 6 months lol.

 

[regal81455]

But id be perfectly find with like a led 1" beam that did uvi 15 in the cage

See I guess I don't understand this statement. With my t5s at least; an inch or two laterally and you might be close to or at zero even though you've hit 15 in line with it. What am I missing?

BTW, side note: Reptisun LED/UVB is an excellent LED in my experience and may just provide that kind of uvb gradient if you're looking for it. It's unfortunate they haven't made one that is longer than 12" +/-.

And yes im perfectly fine with a cham hanging from the screen directly under a T8 bulb for extended periods and im sure the uvi might be near 10. But i think they do that more for getting warm vs "must have mooore uvb". Back when i had my anole/day gecko tank, it was party under the bulb, but the bulb was a T8 so it was about 4x less powerful but still put out plenty of heat. Id be more worried about a T5HO (even if non uvb bulb) cooking little toes

This very well could be that's why I mentioned in another thread the cham was either cold, not getting enough uvb, or both. Hard to know for sure.

 

[regal81455]

Guys and gals, it's important to me, that we all understand this is merely a discussion sparking debate and asking questions. I appreciate everyone's responses so far.

You've definitely given me more things to think about ( and probably question lol ).