The "rules" of chameleon keeping

[renzo0684]

I have to agree also only because if a "newbie" is looking for info, you are only going to give them the things they need to start off strong and safe. If you over load someone with information it can actulally do more harm than good, because words can get mixed up very easily. I loved having all the help when I started and it was all just the basics. You know the raisingkitty blog, temps, lighting, supps, and safe plants. See just the basics are great. You all have seen in once a "newbie" has that down than they start asking questions once they are ready for more info. So just give the info that is needed.

 

[summoner12]

p.s. isn't a discussion forum a great place to have a post like this?

The OP sounds more like a Blog entry than a discussion starter.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

The OP sounds more like a Blog entry than a discussion starter.

And yet a very good discussion started.

-Brad

 

[Brad Ramsey]

I think advice needs to be simple and basic for new members. Advanced keepers can't be giving advanced advice to new people who can't put that care into context. It takes time and learning to understand some of the more advanced care tricks. I have more of a feel for my chams than a set rule I follow... but when things aren't working out or im out of touch, going back to the basics saves ya most of the time.

So yes I do promote progressive care taking... but I don't think it should be preached to the masses because it'll just start up arguments or people who are popping in will take that advice and use it, out of context and wonder what is wrong. It is why we read so many things like 'i heard....' and we find ourselves correcting that train of thought.

So shall the chameleon forums just be for beginners?
I think I very clearly stated how information should be presented.
I don't "preach" anything.

-Brad

 

[renzo0684]

So shall the chameleon forums just be for beginners?

Brad do you still learn stuff from the forum?

Everyone no matter the expierience level will have something to take away from using the forum.

The questions though from a more expierienced keeper will be more comlplex and geared toward other expierienced keepers (probably through PM's) but they are still there. So no the forum is not just for begginers. (I know this was not for me but I wanted to answer the question )

 

[Brad Ramsey]

.
Brad said..."But, refraining from sharing new information or progress on a husbandry experiment in order to stick to posting only safe practices for new people in an effort not to give them the idea that they could try this is unfair"...after a lot of thought and seeing/hearing about so many veiled females having egg difficulties, I gave people the information that I later wrote up for Brad to put on his blog. I'm not sure how well it works for people who have tried it even though it works for me...so, the question is, did this information help or should I have bothered?

I've been posting for years that its totally possible to keep chameleons in glass cages in cooler environments/areas of the world...but its still not very well accepted. I've felt like I'm beating my head against a wall...and in many cases that I was wrong to even suggest it.

I am very glad you shared how you keep female veiled chameleons. I think it's important information and certainly not dangerous.

I understand feeling like you're beating your head against the wall ... but I, for one, have always considered your advice experienced and sound.
Very few people have invested the time you have in chameleons.

-Brad

 

[Brad Ramsey]

Brad do you still learn stuff from the forum?

Everyone no matter the expierience level will have something to take away from using the forum.

The questions though from a more expierienced keeper will be more comlplex and geared toward other expierienced keepers (probably through PM's) but they are still there. So no the forum is not just for begginers. (I know this was not for me but I wanted to answer the question )

I do still learn here.

If anything beyond basic beginner information has to be shared in PM's, then the forums would be only for beginners.

-Brad

 

[laurie]

For example, as a D.Ps student (Doctor in psychology), i can not show you anything about the Rorschach or about the well-know IQ tests, because you would have no idea how dangerous such knowledge can be...

I think the same notion may apply to chameleon husbandry. I don't know which informations should be taught and which shouldn't though...

You know Luevelvet, at the end, i believe both views aren't completely wrong and like i said, i don't possess the Answer to this dilemma. However, i took the time to explain one point of view to facilitate the expression of your opinion and the other people's opinion. This way, maybe some day, we'll find the answer to this concern, which is, in my opinion, very important!

I hate to do this but saying you can not tell someone any thing about Rorschach or IQ test because you are getting a Phd in Psych is way to self important for me. In a second year psych class the head of the psych dept used an MMPI as a class project, we all took them them were TAUGHT by a long time Psych prof how to understand, check to see if it is valid, etc. I could also buy the books that are the same ones you use. I have to ask what things you don't feel we are all allowed to know and why you or anyone else has the right to tell me I can't know/learn it? I think you are 180 off what Luevelvet said, he wants knowledge shared, as I do. Telling a new person the basics makes logical sense, as they progress they, like all of us. should continue to learn more. I even think knowing that people like Brad are dedicated to this hobby and always try to improve the hobby, is something that should be shared. Not as a intro on how to set up a chameleon but as what is cutting edge and being tried by knowledgeable, advanced keepers.

Sorry if I sound rude but I don't handle "I'm better than you attitude", and to me your posting reeks of that.

 

[kinyonga]

Thanks Brad.

I guess there is some "good" in having kept chameleons for so many years.

In the "beginning" the majority of my chameleon keeping methods came from "luck" and experience/mistakes...and having a very good vet. Its good that we can prevent at least some of these mistakes by providing that "general-beginner-advice"!

 

[Elizadolots]

Just noting that if that divide between "beginner" and "experienced" ever became an issue this board has the ability to restrict access to forums.

It would be possible to have "expert discussion" forums for those things that newbies should not be encouraged to try. My concern with that would be the some experts might hang out there and newbies would not get the benefit of their knowledge. But, as long as the moderators promised to spend time in "newbie" land, it would be fine.

 

[renzo0684]

I do still learn here.

If anything beyond basic beginner information has to be shared in PM's, then the forums would be only for beginners.

-Brad

I quess that did kind of come off backwards from where I was aiming it oops... I think I may have to go to bed I am contridicting myself now...

 

[morpheon]

Hi Laurie,

I will let you read one sentence i wrote on this subject:
"And this is a good point. Should we share "high end" knowledge to newcomers or keep it to a more private place? I for sure don't own the answer to this ethical and philosophical question!"

As i stated, i am mostly asking a question, not saying how things should be done. This is a forum, where discussions must take place in order to get things better. I think this subject is as important as many others are, even though it is more ethical than closely related to chameleons in general.

The devil's advocate position i took is not necessary what i believe in. However, my goal was to push this discussion deeper, because it isn't all white nor all black and each positions have their good parts and also their weaknesses.

The proof is some very experienced breeders don't share their knowledge, so there has to be a reason, no?

Now, as your professor may have done, i could be sued and suspended here for doing so. This is protected material, copyrighted and prohibited to the general public, which includes bachelor students (not all the psychological tests are though, but MMPi is). You may argue that my example wasn't good, Ok, fine, but what your professor did was wrong...

At the end, i feel sorry if i didn't get myself well understood. This may be caused by my poorer english, since i am french (not from France!!). If this is the case, i apologize.

 

[laurie]

Hi Laurie,

I will let you read one sentence i wrote on this subject:
"And this is a good point. Should we share "high end" knowledge to newcomers or keep it to a more private place? I for sure don't own the answer to this ethical and philosophical question!"

As i stated, i am mostly asking a question, not saying how things should be done. This is a forum, where discussions must take place in order to get things better. I think this subject is as important as many others are, even though it is more ethical than closely related to chameleons in general.

The devil's advocate position i took is not necessary what i believe in. However, my goal was to push this discussion deeper, because it isn't all white nor all black and each positions have their good parts and also their weaknesses.

The proof is some very experienced breeders don't share their knowledge, so there has to be a reason, no?

Now, as your professor may have done, i could be sued and suspended here for doing so. This is protected material, copyrighted and prohibited to the general public, which includes bachelor students (not all the psychological tests are though, but MMPi is). You may argue that my example wasn't good, Ok, fine, but what your professor did was wrong...

At the end, i feel sorry if i didn't get myself well understood. This may be caused by my poorer english, since i am french (not from France!!). If this is the case, i apologize.

Okay, I'm sorry. I just hate to be told I can't, learn, do, or think anything. No excuse for my behavior but I am a hotheaded, redhead from way back. I love to always learn more and more about everything I do, chameleons, quilting, just life. I always feel the more information shared the better for all of us. You made me think, that is alway good, thanks.

Also my english is rotten andI don't even have any reason.

 

[morpheon]

It's all Ok Laurie! If you understood something i didn't mean to, there may have been at least a dozen of people who understood the same thing than you and didn't mention it!

Making me clarify my thoughts isn't a bad thing at all and can even help me improve my thoughts!

 

[summoner12]

And yet a very good discussion started.

-Brad

You are so wise Brad.

 

[summoner12]

So shall the chameleon forums just be for beginners?
I think I very clearly stated how information should be presented.
I don't "preach" anything.

-Brad

I did not accuse you of "preaching", so I don't really appreciate you twisting my words.

 

[Chris Anderson]

One thing I think should always be considered when giving advice is the experience/knowledge level of the person asking the question. If someone who has never kept chameleons before is told about keeping multiple melleri in a large colonial free-range setup and to watch for behavioral indicators of sex and stress to assess the compatibility of the group, you may just as well have thrown a high school freshman into an advanced differential equations course, s/he's going to be overwhelmed. There are husbandry practices, just as there are species, that should only be attempted or recommended with an appropriate level of knowledge and experience to go along with it.

I believe that new keepers should be encouraged to exercise husbandry practices that are known to be the most commonly successful for the majority of the community. I also think experimentation with novel or challenging husbandry techniques should best be done by the more experienced keepers who have the knowledge and experience base to monitor those efforts more effectively. The gray area is the in-between range.

In certain circumstances, some of the less common husbandry practices may in fact be better recommendations for a keepers, depending on their individual situation. In this situation, I think these "progressive" thoughts on keeping should be provided to the keeper but it needs to be done in a way that clearly emphasizes the reasons the method is not the standard recommendation and what needs to be done to prevent issues. I think this type of assessment and advice should only be given by keepers who have first had experience and knowledge of the advice so that they are able to base their recommendations on actual experience.

I think a major problem with the distribution of information is that it is often done by people who don't have the experience or knowledge themselves to fully understand the advice they are giving. These individuals mean well but they don't always understand the intricate or subtle concerns that need to be discussed or considered with these recommendations. The result is that over time, much of that vital information is lost and the success of those practices decreases.

One of the most challenging things to do successfully when writing a general resource (be it a website, care sheet or book) is covering husbandry while incorporating enough detail to safely span a range of experience levels and circumstances. Doing so requires a lot of effort and experience to put into the material and there are too many general resources that are not necessarily lacking in reasonable information but lack the context to be providing that information to the masses. That is one benefit of a forum where recommendations can be relatively specific to the individual who is asking the question but at the same time, because that information is then available, care still needs to be taken to explain subtleties of what some may refer to as more challenging care practices.

Chris

 

[summoner12]

These individuals mean well but they don't always understand the intricate or subtle concerns that need to be discussed or considered with these recommendations. The result is that over time, much of that vital information is lost and the success of those practices decreases.

Chris

Reminds me of that game 'Telephone'.

 

[RPCV]

One of the most challenging things to do successfully when writing a general resource (be it a website, care sheet or book) is covering husbandry while incorporating enough detail to safely span a range of experience levels and circumstances. Doing so requires a lot of effort and experience to put into the material and there are too many general resources that are not necessarily lacking in reasonable information but lack the context to be providing that information to the masses.
Chris

That's a very good point. Successful publishers have tackled this by knowing their audience and targeting information to their level of interest/knowledge. For example: the "For Dummys" series does a great job in providing basic off the shelf information but would be a waste of time for anyone looking for details or the context of the information provided. On the opposite end Wiley does a good job targeting advanced subjects but the information in their publications would often be confusing to someone looking for the basics.

The challenge of a forum like this is trying to be all things for all members. Providing the basics for those who simply want to raise a healthy cham as a hobby but also diving into novel aspects for the experienced keepers in order to advance the science of husbandry.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Found this an interesting thread!

Agreed - there are no rules
Agreed - there are common practises that have value, especially for those newer to chameleon keeping
Agreed - it would be best if those giving advice had knowledge and experience about the subject they are adressing, and also kept both of the first two points in mind

One of the things I like best about this forum, though it often also frustrates me, is the stimulating dialogue that includes differences in experience and opinion.