The "rules" of chameleon keeping

[Brad Ramsey]

There definitely are some and advising people, especially self proclaimed "newbies" to follow certain standards is not a bad idea.
However, there are also experienced keepers on these forums who are experimenting with some new ideas and having some great successes.

The standard way in which people are advised to keep chameleons today was not always the recommended practice and it was through much trial and error, experimentation with husbandry and paying greater attention to how these animals live in their natural environments that got us this far.

We still have a lot to learn about keeping these animals and smart, progressive thinking should not be discouraged.
I have always said that the current basic rules are working well and should absolutely be what is recommended to new keepers.
Regurgitated information offered by new keepers is not completely terrible. I think it's an important step in learning about these animals.

But, refraining from sharing new information or progress on a husbandry experiment in order to stick to posting only safe practices for new people in an effort not to give them the idea that they could try this is unfair.

Becoming entrenched in a set group of ideas with no ability to "think outside the box" prevents all of us from moving forward.

I am committed to improving the captive conditions of all my chameleons and this has been taking me away from the prescribed rules more and more lately.

-Brad

 

[gpmo]

Well said Brad.

 

[morpheon]

The ethical danger of modifying ways of keeping chameleons is that people can bypass rules without knowing their potential negative impact.

Another threat, like people close to science are familiar with, is the impossibility to reproduce an experiment, ie not having all the informations related to the conditions of breeding, or making something that is so unique that it can not be done elsewhere.

I am very dedicated to science, to improvement and to additional knowledge. However, it has to be done by people who have the skills and the means to do it. And I know that people may try it out without having the prerequisite.

 

[radstusky]

Things have definitely changed. I got my first panther chameleon back in '93 I believe. I bought him at a pet store in Tampa (where I was living at the time) and he was about the size of a cricket! I guess he was probably only a couple weeks old at most. when I moved up to New England, I brought him with me and I am sad to admit that he lived his whole life in an aquarium . It's not that I didn't better, it was just that I didn't have the money back then to improve his enclosure. I was in the middle of building a huge screen cage for him when he died. He did live for about 4 years, which wasn't too bad I think. Also what did him in was that I had to lend him to a friend since my wife (now ex) was freaking out about salmonella and we had a baby...

The biggest difference I see in husbandry is that there are A LOT more commercial insect foods available, and also of course this forum! Back then we had basically crickets and super worms. I'm sure there were more available than that, but it certainly wasn't as easy to find them as it is now. I was a member of the Chameleon Information Network (CiN) which was of course very helpful and interesting.

Now it's 14 years later, and I finally got my second cham! I'm hopeful that I'll be able to take much better care of him than the dear departed Melvin, and once again it's great to have this forum as a resource for good information! Who knows I may even branch into some other species besides panthers as well.

 

[trdlabs]

There definitely are some and advising people, especially self proclaimed "newbies" to follow certain standards is not a bad idea.
However, there are also experienced keepers on these forums who are experimenting with some new ideas and having some great successes.

The standard way in which people are advised to keep chameleons today was not always the recommended practice and it was through much trial and error, experimentation with husbandry and paying greater attention to how these animals live in their natural environments that got us this far.

We still have a lot to learn about keeping these animals and smart, progressive thinking should not be discouraged.
I have always said that the current basic rules are working well and should absolutely be what is recommended to new keepers.
Regurgitated information offered by new keepers is not completely terrible. I think it's an important step in learning about these animals.

But, refraining from sharing new information or progress on a husbandry experiment in order to stick to posting only safe practices for new people in an effort not to give them the idea that they could try this is unfair.

Becoming entrenched in a set group of ideas with no ability to "think outside the box" prevents all of us from moving forward.

I am committed to improving the captive conditions of all my chameleons and this has been taking me away from the prescribed rules more and more lately.

-Brad

I am glad somebody is thinking outside the box. I always do just to try to keep things better. I did it with saltwater and I am going to do it with my chams. What works for you might not work for me or someone else. It's all about trial and error.

 

[Brad Ramsey]

The ethical danger of modifying ways of keeping chameleons is that people can bypass rules without knowing their potential negative impact.

Another threat, like people close to science are familiar with, is the impossibility to reproduce an experiment, ie not having all the informations related to the conditions of breeding, or making something that is so unique that it can not be done elsewhere.

I am very dedicated to science, to improvement and to additional knowledge. However, it has to be done by people who have the skills and the means to do it. And I know that people may try it out without having the prerequisite.

Absolutely, and I believe I stated that more experienced keepers have refrained from sharing in the past partly because it could be misinterpreted and attempted by people without a significant amount of time in the hobby.
My point is that if primary practices become dogma, there is no room left for advancing the quality of the work.

-Brad

 

[morpheon]

Absolutely, and I believe I stated that more experienced keepers have refrained from sharing in the past partly because it could be misinterpreted and attempted by people without a significant amount of time in the hobby.
My point is that if primary practices become dogma, there is no room left for advancing the quality of the work.

-Brad

And this is a good point. Should we share "high end" knowledge to newcomers or keep it to a more private place? I for sure don't own the answer to this ethical and philosophical question!

And trdlabs, there are two ways of trying new things; the first is trial and error, which is used by extroverted people, and the second is based on insight and used by introverts. As far as science goes, it uses a bit of both in fact. The trial and error principle is used to validate and invalidate hypothesis, which are (the hypothesis) based on insights and previous researches and theories.

Now, why did i write this? To let people who already don't know that science isn't a random thing. It isn't based on the notion of "not following any rule", just to find out its associated results!

 

[luevelvet]

And this is a good point. Should we share "high end" knowledge to newcomers or keep it to a more private place? I for sure don't own the answer to this ethical and philosophical question

There is no "high end" knowledge. There are no "secrets" to keeping chameleons. What separates the newcomers from the more experienced keepers is, exactly that, experience. There isn't anything that anyone can say that will take the place of you learning it yourself. The standard "rules of thumb", as it were, are very applicable in that they provide guidelines for newcomers to follow for a level of success. Most of the knowledge folks gain beyond these guidelines is very much intuitive husbandry and experience which can be difficult to articulate.

Regarding how much things have changed, well, as much as the standards have changed in recent years, they really haven't changed much when looking at the big picture. Reading Brads wonderfully informative care sheet made me realize how little things have actually changed.

The hobby has done well but I think we're seeing more and more evidence that the current solutions we have commercially available, aren't gong to quite cut it anymore. Hence the developments of misting and drainage systems, the use of glass cages (which the Europeans have been using for years with great success) and need mention the development and support for forums such as this one.

There will always be people who won't openly discuss their techniques and experience. This is found in all facets of our lives. But, this isn't rocket science either.

Luis

 

[morpheon]

In fact, i do believe there is a "high end knowledge" that some people shouldn't have access to. The reason is because they couldn't use it in the right way, which could lead to more trouble than if they didn't have access to it.

This kind of knowledge can be found in many and many other disciplines, such as nuclear physics, psychology, architecture, biology (like cloning) etc. Indeed, most professionnals can't share some information to the general population for this exact reason.

For example, as a D.Ps student (Doctor in psychology), i can not show you anything about the Rorschach or about the well-know IQ tests, because you would have no idea how dangerous such knowledge can be...

I think the same notion may apply to chameleon husbandry. I don't know which informations should be taught and which shouldn't though...

In fact, this is a big concern i have with some french forums i visit daily. One of them (Tanalahy) is very good and has over a dozen of well-skilled breeders. However, another one that i will not mention, is full of beginners. Based on this, i would have no problem sharing any information on Tanalahy, but on another other forum i would be scared to death to have the infos i post used in a wrong way.

However, if you want to complicate a bit more this dilemma, you can add the "eugenics-like" conception of censoring some knowledge to some people...

You know Luevelvet, at the end, i believe both views aren't completely wrong and like i said, i don't possess the Answer to this dilemma. However, i took the time to explain one point of view to facilitate the expression of your opinion and the other people's opinion. This way, maybe some day, we'll find the answer to this concern, which is, in my opinion, very important!

 

[RPCV]

Great discussion. My 2 cents for what it's worth:
Cham husbandry is without question a science. In order for any advances in practice the results of any successful deviation from the norm must meet the basic scientific criteria of being relevent, reliable (good science) and reproducible.

For most health related animal studies good science will dictate that they are performed under controlled conditions. This is done to limit bias and confounding. The more independent variables that can be controled the more likely the independent variable of interest can be associated with an outcome. The problem with this is these types of studies require funding. Just a hunch - but my guess is there is not much money floating around or interest in investing in cham. research.

Since we can assume that most husbandry related aspects will not receive research funding then we need to rely on experience. This is fine as long as a population observes similar outcomes (desirable or undesirable), those outcomes can be linked to a specific practice and that poplulation is large enough that the influence of other possible variables on those findings is reduced. For example; if 2 people put baby chams in large enclosures and observe bad outcomes then the enclosure might not be to blame (those two people could also be doing other things that caused this outcome). However, if 20 people observe this outcome and they all have relatively similar husbandry then the liklihood of the enclosure being the cause increases. Outcomes that occur rarely are going to be much more difficult to evaluate than those that are observed frequently in a population.

What makes me nervous is when one (or a few number) of individuals observe and outcome, associate that outcome with a specific variable then try to make inferences that the association they observed is correct and would apply to the cham poplulation as a whole. This is an ecological falacy and one of the biggest flaws in logic I've seen applied on this board.

Anywho - great topic Brad and I think experienced cham keepers should share their novel ideas. This is how we build our collective experience. However, the responsible poster on this forum would clearly call it what it is, simply their observations, and not pass it off as scientifically defensible fact.

 

[gpmo]

In fact, i do believe there is a "high end knowledge" that some people shouldn't have access to. The reason is because they couldn't use it in the right way, which could lead to more trouble than if they didn't have access to it.

This kind of knowledge can be found in many and many other disciplines, such as nuclear physics, psychology, architecture, biology (like cloning) etc. Indeed, most professionnals can't share some information to the general population for this exact reason.

For example, as a D.Ps student (Doctor in psychology), i can not show you anything about the Rorschach or about the well-know IQ tests, because you would have no idea how dangerous such knowledge can be...

Just thought I would chime in too. I disagree that "high end"knowledge should be secret (or kept from beginners etc). I think a person with a greater knowledge and experience on a subject has a responsibility to share the knowledge with others for the betterment of humanity as a whole.

As a veterinary student and long time technician I have seen the damage hiding knowledge can cause in the long run. The more informed a person is in any situation the better able they will be to make correct decisions, be it animal husbandry or anything else. For example; would you want your doctor to explain the risks associated with a needed medical procedure so you could make a well informed decision or would you prefer a doctor to commence with a procedure without your knowledge because the doctor felt it would be dangerous for you to know the details?

knowledge is knowledge! There is no hierarchy and who are we to judge what one person should know or not?

gpmo(her)

 

[RPCV]

For example; would you want your doctor to explain the risks associated with a needed medical procedure so you could make a well informed decision or would you prefer a doctor to commence with a procedure without your knowledge because the doctor felt it would be dangerous for you to know the details?
gpmo(her)

I completely agree with your post (as I would likely agree with anyone in CSU's CVMBS program ).

I do think the example might not be apples to apples. We should assume that what our doctor's know is in fact knowledge that they have received through review and critique of controled studies published in reputable peer refereed journals. In this case the information should be shared with us as being "known" and if their are gaps in knowledge (risks) these might also be communicated.

I doubt the literature on chameleons is very robust (I may be wrong and others would know better than I). In which case what is being shared is based on experience. This also is very valuable information and should be communicated freely. But it is mostly just individual observation (hypothesis generating) and the source (experience level and education) would need to be considered. Unfortunately it is difficult for new comers to differentiate between quality observation (experienced/knowledgable poster) and not so quality observation. Hopefully this forum could lead to more in depth study of some areas (hypothesis testing) in the future.

 

[Elizadolots]

My take: If someone says "I'm getting ready to buy a chameleon, what should I do?" then that person should be given the most commonly accepted, known to work practices as advice.

If the person asks for alternative ways and has reasons for that, then that's the right time to discuss "out of the box" ideas.

If someone says "Here's what I'm doing" the response should not be a list of commonly accepted practices with statements that these must be followed coupled with dire warnings of "your cham will die".

That's the time for discussion of why the "commonly accepted practices" became commonly accepted and why this person is doing something different. It's possible that the person has thought it out well and done research and has a solid reason for going off the normal "rules".

Of course, if it turns out the person just used the knowledge he/she had from raising gerbils as a kid and only picked the glassed in bronze trimmed enclosure because it looked cool....then education is in order, but it should be done respectfully and hopefully with an eye toward what the person is trying to accomplish ("Can some of {all?} the glass be replaced with plexiglass that has a lot of holes drilled into it so there is plenty of ventilation?" as opposed to "then your cham will die".)

 

[fluxlizard]

I am all for sharing ideas and knowledge. But I think a distinction needs to be made between categories of knowledge when sharing - categories like speculation, experience, and absolute knowledge.

I think far too much speculation and successful experience gets passed off as absolute knowledge when it comes to certain aspects of husbandry (not only of chameleons, but lizards in general).

I think for example it's much better to use statements like "most people keep them in" or "I've had good results supplementing with this brand and I think the reason why is" rather than statements like "Chameleons must be" (unless of course someone is about to say something that falls in the absolute truth category) or statements like "you don't have to because I don't have to" when 99% of keepers feel they have to whatever.

Basically caution should be applied to advice...

And the farther from the norm the advice, the more caution should be given by the one giving the advice...

 

[Todnedo]

There definitely are some and advising people, especially self proclaimed "newbies" to follow certain standards is not a bad idea.
However, there are also experienced keepers on these forums who are experimenting with some new ideas and having some great successes.

The standard way in which people are advised to keep chameleons today was not always the recommended practice and it was through much trial and error, experimentation with husbandry and paying greater attention to how these animals live in their natural environments that got us this far.

We still have a lot to learn about keeping these animals and smart, progressive thinking should not be discouraged.
I have always said that the current basic rules are working well and should absolutely be what is recommended to new keepers.
Regurgitated information offered by new keepers is not completely terrible. I think it's an important step in learning about these animals.

But, refraining from sharing new information or progress on a husbandry experiment in order to stick to posting only safe practices for new people in an effort not to give them the idea that they could try this is unfair.

Becoming entrenched in a set group of ideas with no ability to "think outside the box" prevents all of us from moving forward.

I am committed to improving the captive conditions of all my chameleons and this has been taking me away from the prescribed rules more and more lately.

-Brad

There is a lot of not so good info. on chameleon care.
Like screen cages, back in the early 90's everyone kept chams in aquariums
that's was fine as long as they were kept clean and the top was screen.
some keepers didn't clean enough and watered them too much causing problems.
I used aquariums too but I stood them on end so they were tall with the front open, they kept plenty of humidity that way.
Then everyone switch to screen cages thinking aquariums were not good for chams because they didn't have enough airflow.
So it went from one extreme to the other. With screen cages, lack of humidity became the problem.
Now properly vented glass cages are becoming popular.
So you can see there is no set in stone method that works for everyone but yet people want to bash others for trying new methods.
It all comes down to careful observations and tweaking to avoid or fix problems.

 

[summoner12]

sounds like a great discussion but should have maybe started out as a blog?

 

[luevelvet]

So who here has "top secret", "high end" knowledge that can't be shared publicly on this forum?

Please contact me off the boards so we can arrange lunch...my place...

Luis

 

[gpmo]

"His view"

There are so many great minds commenting here it is stimulating. I was thinking about what people are saying about thinking outside the box is the only way to be progressive. And it is a very important part of any hobby/care giving/learning. I think that like all things there has to be a starting known working method to do something, or a know good. The known good should be given to the people like myself who are new to this hobby, but to hide the other possibilities or the outside the box possibilities is not acceptable.

All knowledge needs a base, you must start with the basics (the known good) and move up from there in order to be the best at what ever it is you are trying to do. And keeping an open mind when you hear someone suggesting a new possibility. While your methods as you advance work, there are also a infinite number of other possibilities that also may work just as well.

Gpmo (him)

p.s. isn't a discussion forum a great place to have a post like this?

 

[kinyonga]

Eliza said..."My take: If someone says "I'm getting ready to buy a chameleon, what should I do?" then that person should be given the most commonly accepted, known to work practices as advice"....I agree with this.

Brad said..."But, refraining from sharing new information or progress on a husbandry experiment in order to stick to posting only safe practices for new people in an effort not to give them the idea that they could try this is unfair"...after a lot of thought and seeing/hearing about so many veiled females having egg difficulties, I gave people the information that I later wrote up for Brad to put on his blog. I'm not sure how well it works for people who have tried it even though it works for me...so, the question is, did this information help or should I have bothered?

I've been posting for years that its totally possible to keep chameleons in glass cages in cooler environments/areas of the world...but its still not very well accepted. I've felt like I'm beating my head against a wall...and in many cases that I was wrong to even suggest it.

 

[summoner12]

I think advice needs to be simple and basic for new members. Advanced keepers can't be giving advanced advice to new people who can't put that care into context. It takes time and learning to understand some of the more advanced care tricks. I have more of a feel for my chams than a set rule I follow... but when things aren't working out or im out of touch, going back to the basics saves ya most of the time.

So yes I do promote progressive care taking... but I don't think it should be preached to the masses because it'll just start up arguments or people who are popping in will take that advice and use it, out of context and wonder what is wrong. It is why we read so many things like 'i heard....' and we find ourselves correcting that train of thought.