The power of the sun

[stevereecy]

So here's a question. Hoping one of you folks with a UVB sensor can answer this. I've seen UVB lights advertised as having 5% of natural sunlight. I'm wondering if that is even close to correct. Have you ever taken your UVB meter outdoors and took a reading from the sun itself? How did it compare to the UVB bulb. Lets say, if the UVB meter was 12-inches from the UVB bulb.

I'm asking because I have a back porch that catches the morning sun only. I'm considering placing my chams out there, with just an incandescent bulb or infrared bulb for heat only. My reasoning is that 3 hours of 100% UVB is way better than 12 hours of 5% UVB, because 3 * 1.00 > 12 * 0.05 ...I was thinking my chams could winter there since I live in North Florida and the porch faces south.

But admittedly, the 5% UVB is all day, compared to only a fourth of a day of full sun. Wonder how much actual time they are in the sun in the day when there is tree canopy and sharp-eyed predators to contend with? Probably more than a fourth.

Is this crazy? Anyone tried this?

Love to know.

Steve

 

[Phatturk]

I am no expert and I don't have a UVB meter but absolutely the real sun is better than the bulb no question. I am also not sure but am wondering myself if UVB rays reflect? If the Cham is not in the direct sunlight but just outside on a sunny day does he still get the rays? I know that UVB won't go through glass or plastic but I have a roofed patio that doesn't get the direct rays of the sun. Is it useless?

 

[Electric]

they say you still get uvb rays on a cloudy day, but under a roofed patio I doubt you're getting any at all

 

[Chameleons By Design]

So here's a question. Hoping one of you folks with a UVB sensor can answer this. I've seen UVB lights advertised as having 5% of natural sunlight. I'm wondering if that is even close to correct. Have you ever taken your UVB meter outdoors and took a reading from the sun itself? How did it compare to the UVB bulb. Lets say, if the UVB meter was 12-inches from the UVB bulb.

I'm asking because I have a back porch that catches the morning sun only. I'm considering placing my chams out there, with just an incandescent bulb or infrared bulb for heat only. My reasoning is that 3 hours of 100% UVB is way better than 12 hours of 5% UVB, because 3 * 1.00 > 12 * 0.05 ...I was thinking my chams could winter there since I live in North Florida and the porch faces south.

But admittedly, the 5% UVB is all day, compared to only a fourth of a day of full sun. Wonder how much actual time they are in the sun in the day when there is tree canopy and sharp-eyed predators to contend with? Probably more than a fourth.

Is this crazy? Anyone tried this?

Love to know.

Steve

Hey Steve,
Now im no Cham expert. But from my own experiance of raising babies outside verses inside the outside babies are so much healthier. The outside chams color much more faster in the natural sunlight verses artificial light. Right now we have Nosy Be Panthers outside that at three months are almost at there full color potential. So I can only imagine that the UVB rays from natural sunlight are that much more intense. So if you are in an area that you can put your chams outside I would highly recommend it. hope this helps alittle .

 

[stevereecy]

Hey Steve,
Now im no Cham expert. But from my own experiance of raising babies outside verses inside the outside babies are so much healthier. The outside chams color much more faster in the natural sunlight verses artificial light. Right now we have Nosy Be Panthers outside that at three months are almost at there full color potential. So I can only imagine that the UVB rays from natural sunlight are that much more intense. So if you are in an area that you can put your chams outside I would highly recommend it. hope this helps alittle .

Yeah, I was salivating over those baby Nosys...very nice color. I guess what I'm really getting at here is the power of periodic or short duration exposure to the sun as a substitute for the relatively weak UVB lights.

And the other poster raised an interesting question about UVB reflection. Does reflected light suffer losses due to greenhouse effect? Anyone want to stand on a shaded back porch and take a meter reading? My guess is that it will reduce the UVB level, but not convert it. So a reflection is the light that didn't absorb, and if it didn't shift wavelength, should have a little UVB in there, but how much?

(I'm rambling)

Ok...wait...some of my physics is coming back to me. An item is blue because it absorbs all specta of light except blue, and that is what reflects back. So perhaps if your porch were painted red, or you placed mirrors strategically, you might get some UVB. Anyone want to take a meter reading off a mirror reflection and or the reflection of something painted red? Mirrors don't shift the wavelength of the light in the visible spectrum, otherwise it would all be "colored".

Steve

 

[Will Hayward]

2.0, 5.0, 8.0, or 10.0 don't represent well percentage of sunlight. Since each of the bulbs produces variable spikes in different areas of the UVA and UVB spectrum. Sure the 10.0 is more intense than the 2.0, but since they do not produce the same spikes in the spectrums, it's hard to compare them.

 

[Prism Chameleons]

Interesting thread. Obviously we all agree that natural sunlight is always better, however, many are unable to provide this for their chameleons depending on location and weather conditions.

I'd be interested for someone to see if there is a UVB reading with the mirror reflection... very interesting theory. Although mirrors can be dangerous with heat & burning of eyes under direct contact - so that is something to be considered too. Also, Steve if you need some coverage during the winter months in Florida (I know it can get cool & rainy) there are products you can buy (glass & plastic) that do not prevent the UVB rays from passing through, or has a very slight diminished rate. I don't have any links to pass on, maybe someone else does, but I was looking into this when I was building my facility. It might help to keep some of the warmth in during the winter and protect them from cold rainfalls.

Just a thought... and it would be nice to be able to offer your chameleons a more natural habitat with direct sun .

 

[stevereecy]

2.0, 5.0, 8.0, or 10.0 don't represent well percentage of sunlight. Since each of the bulbs produces variable spikes in different areas of the UVA and UVB spectrum. Sure the 10.0 is more intense than the 2.0, but since they do not produce the same spikes in the spectrums, it's hard to compare them.

I've seen some 5.0 bulbs advertised as having 5% of the UVB spectrum. My guess is that the advertising gurus are measuring the 5% intensity at the best location they can find within that spectrum (i.e., to their advantage)...like real close to the borderline with the UVA spectrum. And I'm sure there is some set distance involved from bulb to measuring meter, which they never reveal.

Yet, like you say, I've seen bulbs advertised as a "5.0", or a "7.0" that give no basis whatsoever for where the number comes from. So theoretically, some evil marketing guy could take a bulb that barely puts out any UVB at all, and then slap a label on it that reads "Super UVB Sun Bulb 10.0". I'm very suspicious of that, and always look for a percent (%) symbol on my bulbs. I'm sure someone, somewhere, has done studies on this kind of stuff, and I'm thinking I now need a UVB meter, but is there any affordable ones out there that can read low light levels?

Hmm...my responses are digging up more questions than quashing them. Hopefully someone here has a UVB meter that can answer them. Still want to know how UVB levels in the sun and in the shade compare to a typical UVB bulb.

Steve

 

[stevereecy]

Interesting thread. Obviously we all agree that natural sunlight is always better, however, many are unable to provide this for their chameleons depending on location and weather conditions.

I'd be interested for someone to see if there is a UVB reading with the mirror reflection... very interesting theory. Although mirrors can be dangerous with heat & burning of eyes under direct contact - so that is something to be considered too. Also, Steve if you need some coverage during the winter months in Florida (I know it can get cool & rainy) there are products you can buy (glass & plastic) that do not prevent the UVB rays from passing through, or has a very slight diminished rate. I don't have any links to pass on, maybe someone else does, but I was looking into this when I was building my facility. It might help to keep some of the warmth in during the winter and protect them from cold rainfalls.

Just a thought... and it would be nice to be able to offer your chameleons a more natural habitat with direct sun .

That does give me ideas. Might look into covering the front of the porch with that type of plastic, but I don't see how that would work from a Physics point of view. But I can't understimate the chemists. Like I say, my porch faces south, and I have an awesome view of the stars at night. It catches a lot of sun in the mornings. I guess I could attach cardboard or insulation to all sides of the cage but the part that faces south to minimize heat loss. Perhaps keep the heatsource back away from the screen. Probably have to run two heat sources in case one failed so I wouldn't have a frozen cham. Almost lost my iguana one year that way. But we can get down to the 40s or some nights, so I'd have to take them in...or keep them in most of the year.

Steve

 

[Sepioteuthis]

Have you checked out www.uvguide.co.uk?

 

[stevereecy]

Have you checked out www.uvguide.co.uk?

<CLICK>

 

[Chameleons By Design]

This thread is becoming very interesting. The example im about to post here may have nothing to do with chameleons but it is alittle helpful in my eyes. Ok before I started breeding chameleons I use to own a salwater fish store. Being in this business I acquired many things. The one thing was a outside saltwater reef aquarium. With this the aquarium had a mirrored bottom for the exact reason on the sunlight shining down and reflecting back up to penetrate the bottoms of the living corals. This is done so that the bases would live and not die off. ENOUGH OF MY RAMBLING

So in my eyes with this experiance im sure that a mirror would still reflect a large amount of UVB.

 

[Vegas Chad]

Obviously the best place for a chameleon is outside; when outside they are about to utilize to full energy from the sun; which a chameleon is designed to do. Any man made imitation is a pitiful, yet adequate substitute for the sun, I doubt any of us will be around by the time man is able to wield the power of the sun! I have been doing a fair bit of research about this ‘area 51’ UVB transparent plastic and it dose exist however as said the UBV diminishes rapidly, however from product sheets that I have read it would still be better than our tube lights… When you use mirrors you will always have to account for a loss variable, even when you bounce lasers off targeting and focusing mirrors there is a loss that must be accounted for… Same when the rays of the sun; clouds, smog, dust in the air, ECT will all account for a loss of potential UVB that can reach your front porch. However; will it matter? No… I don’t think building a mirrored focusing beam would really benefit the chameleon, more likely cook it! But getting your chameleon as much natural light as possible is highly beneficial. If you shine the sun on them but not focus it I am sure that will help some. My goal for the winter is to build that PVC chameleons run that some have posted in here. That will be very convenient for me as now I just lug my cages out into the lawn and put the hose to them… With that I can keep them outside for days controlling the mist flow and such… Weather permitting of course. Sooooo yea… Putting your chameleon out in the morning is a good idea me thinks…

 

[stevereecy]

<CLICK>

I'm baaaack! I'm enlightened. Here's some rules of thumb.

For us folks in North America, we get about 150 uW/Cm2 from natural sunlight, or "150 units". On average, we get about half of that before noon.

A typical flourescent appears to give you about 15 to 20 units when measured 12 inches away. Its generous to assume your chams will stay that close.

Reflection does help. So would mirrors. A grassy area gives indirect values ranging from 13 to 54 units, but a stone patio can give 130 units. And reflector hoods on UVB lights can increase UVB output of a flourescent bulb by 50%.

A snippet from the article siad that chams typically get about 15 to 33 units in the wild.

Oh, and Jenna is right that they do sell neat plastic glasses that only cut out 20% of the UVB, but typical glass will cut as much as 96% of it.

So if I get 3 hours of morning sun at 75 units, that is 3 * 57 = 225 units. That compares to 12 hours of 17.5 units under a flourescent tube, which is a daily intake of 12 * 17.5 = 210 units. So it means they are roughly equivalent! I do not know how the time element plays in.

I do know that I'll be using light fixtures with hoods, but I can't use mirrors unless strategically placed because the chams could see their reflections. I may even retrofit hoods for some of my fixtures.


Steve

 

[lonomac]

My big problem here is the intense heat. I'd love to get the chams out more if they didn't have to bake to do it. The only way Im aware of is direct sunlight but if there is any material that will still pass UVB through I'd like to know. That way I could control the temp and get the UVB....

 

[Smitty]

Reflection does help. So would mirrors. A grassy area gives indirect values ranging from 13 to 54 units, but a stone patio can give 130 units. And reflector hoods on UVB lights can increase UVB output of a flourescent bulb by 50%.

So, I have a custom made hood for my light that I created out of stainless steal. If I line that hood with mirrors, it would reflect more UVB down and would be better?

I don't think I have to worry about a reflection because that would also mean the cham is looking almost directly into the light in order to see the reflection. If chams are like any other animal, I can't see them staring at a strong light for any length of time because it would hurt their eyes, and the reflection would be going through screen that would diffuse any change of them seeing themselves (I would think).

 

[stevereecy]

So, I have a custom made hood for my light that I created out of stainless steal. If I line that hood with mirrors, it would reflect more UVB down and would be better?

I don't think I have to worry about a reflection because that would also mean the cham is looking almost directly into the light in order to see the reflection. If chams are like any other animal, I can't see them staring at a strong light for any length of time because it would hurt their eyes, and the reflection would be going through screen that would diffuse any change of them seeing themselves (I would think).

I'm not an expert. I'm just parroting what I read at that (very comprehensive and wonderful) website. But yeah, thats what it seems like. But I have to wonder...since infrared is so close to the red visible spectrum, would red be better? My guess is that infrared does reflect in mirrors well, its just that our eyes can't see it!

Steve

 

[Kent67]

Hey Steve, saw your adcham post and figured I'd see if this was that other forum. My understanding is that just a couple hours of unfiltered sunlight a day is all a chameleon needs to maintain proper d3 levels in the blood. Even in the shade, they are still getting exposure as well. As for the bulbs, I thought the 5.0, 10.0, etc referred to how much of the light spectrum the bulb produces was actually in the UVB range, rather than the percentage of UVB compared to the sun's intensity.

 

[Steven Reecy]

Hey Steve, saw your adcham post and figured I'd see if this was that other forum. My understanding is that just a couple hours of unfiltered sunlight a day is all a chameleon needs to maintain proper d3 levels in the blood. Even in the shade, they are still getting exposure as well. As for the bulbs, I thought the 5.0, 10.0, etc referred to how much of the light spectrum the bulb produces was actually in the UVB range, rather than the percentage of UVB compared to the sun's intensity.

Yeah, guess I better cross post the resolution here. Adcham is slow these days, which is a shame considering the collective experience level there.

 

[Electric]

with all this uvb talk, I was wondering, does anyone here use any of the reptileuv.com lamps? or any europeans on here use the osram vitalux? it would be nice to get a review on some of those lamps to see if the keepers noticed much change from using regular fluo tubes