The Next Frontier?

[Kristen Wilkins]

I spent 3 hours trying to paint my dang fingernails too.... only to have to remove it all. As soon as I took it off he was totally fine. And it was like a pale pink color nothing striking

He told you !!. I wish we could visit their mind . Look through their eyes . Register how they do .

 

[Kaizen]

I see, we’re on nails now. Well, so be it. My wife will certainly not thank you for this, but I’m gonna try painting my gnarly landscaper toenails in front of the chams. Reports to follow....

 

[KobaOregonherper]

I do feel that the manor in which you express yourself can come across as belittling. As far as Brody, he and I can agree to disagree on this topic as well but he also does not make me feel like I am less then for what I believe. I think it is the fact that you automatically go off the assumption that we just don't understand.

I do not have a need for a bond... THERE IS A BOND. Again the way in which your saying that is belittling. Yes, the chameleon does need their to be a bond. This makes it easier on it if there is a level of trust between cham and keeper. When it comes to cleaning alone this is important. I have been through a lot with Beman in the last few months from stripping his cage of plants and cleaning every day. It has pulled at our bond but the fact that he has that level of trust for me as his keeper is what made it easier on him with all the changes to his environment and me constantly cleaning.

It is your position and need to be right. That heaven forbid there be a grey area. I understand the need to correct someone when they are saying their cham loves to cuddle or falls asleep on them. I fully understand that. But the need to push your view on those of us that are good keepers and know the difference is absurd.

Im not apologizing. Chameleons do not feel emotion, they need uvb, they need calcium, they need humidity, they need a varied diet. This isnt me pushing a view, this is me quoting what is seen as scientific fact and others arguing what has been proven as fact. What I see everyone getting offended over is somehow quoting a fact is belittling. If you heard a conersation about how chameleons dont need a basking bulb, would you not assume theyre just uniformed? Im sorry that this offends you Becca, honestly I do. The problem is that everyone is so staunch on there opinion on thos they refuse to see reason. Ive honestly done nothing but basically quote a text book.

Also, accusing me of a need to be right is a bit hypocritical. Ive yet to personally attack anyone, other than teasing @JoXie411 . If the evidence comes out to the contrary that they do in fact feel love, ill stick to the evidence. I have zero need to feel right, i couldnt honestyly care less. I just dont understand the mindset of ignoring studies and science.

 

[Beman]

Anybody going to offer a definition, or some defining criteria for love, emotion, trust, etc? If not, I don’t blame you. But I’m not sure this debate will go anywhere unless all parties are working with a similar definition.

Nope.... I am out on this one. lol I love deeply. I give my whole heart to everyone until I get smacked. I genuinely care for others happiness. Truth is in relation to Chams... I do not believe it is love. But I do believe that they have a knowing. I have seen this in other animals as well. I think there is too much to life that is unexplained. From the moment Beman picked me in the store we have had a bond. He is getting older now and I have put him through a lot trying to get him through health scares. Removing his plants and security. He has shown me his frustration. But in this even though he felt out of place and not safe he has never hurt me. I totally think this is due to his trust of me. I have never broken that.

 

[KobaOregonherper]

I would like to go back... Now my first line of "your new here... " I did not mean this in a negative manor. Just that once your around for awhile you will see that us regulars on the forum actually get along quite well lol. We all enjoy a good debate and speaking for myself at least I respect everyone's opinion and honestly I love hearing their opinions. Yours included.

It usually all blows over @Jammoos . This is usually the only topic that gets us fired up. This and how to respond to new members. Which this covers both.

 

[Beman]

Im not apologizing. Chameleons do not feel emotion, they need uvb, they need calcium, they need humidity, they need a varied diet. This isnt me pushing a view, this is me quoting what is seen as scientific fact and others arguing what has been proven as fact. What I see everyone getting offended over is somehow quoting a fact is belittling. If you heard a conersation about how chameleons dont need a basking bulb, would you not assume theyre just uniformed? Im sorry that this offends you Becca, honestly I do. The problem is that everyone is so staunch on there opinion on thos they refuse to see reason. Ive honestly done nothing but basically quote a text book.

Also, accusing me of a need to be right is a bit hypocritical. Ive yet to personally attack anyone, other than teasing @JoXie411 . If the evidence comes out to the contrary that they do in fact feel love, ill stick to the evidence. I have zero need to feel right, i couldnt honestyly care less. I just dont understand the mindset of ignoring studies and science.

LOL I think it is your scientific brain... without crossing forum boundaries I find that when we are deeply rooted in science it does not allow for us to see the magic in the world. You from a scientific base are going "uggg magic wtf is she talking about" But there is magic and the unexplained. I respect your point of view. But I still do not believe that science 100% defines anything in life.

 

[KobaOregonherper]

LOL I think it is your scientific brain... without crossing forum boundaries I find that when we are deeply rooted in science it does not allow for us to see the magic in the world. You from a scientific base are going "uggg magic wtf is she talking about" But there is magic and the unexplained. I respect your point of view. But I still do not believe that science 100% defines anything in life.

I did that exact thing!!!

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

It usually all blows over @Jammoos . This is usually the only topic that gets us fired up. This and how to respond to new members. Which this covers both.

And chameleon’s in music videos !!.

 

[Kaizen]

Yikes! So what’s exactly is your operative definition of emotion? Totally not try to antagonize here, but if this debate is going to be fruitful, I think it would be helpful to know what you mean by ‘emotion’.

 

[Jammoos]

I would like to go back... Now my first line of "your new here... " I did not mean this in a negative manor. Just that once your around for awhile you will see that us regulars on the forum actually get along quite well lol. We all enjoy a good debate and speaking for myself at least I respect everyone's opinion and honestly I love hearing their opinions. Yours included.

It usually all blows over @Jammoos . This is usually the only topic that gets us fired up. This and how to respond to new members. Which this covers both.

I think I worded this wrong. What I meant initially was that this seems more like everyone feeling like their relationship w/ their chameleons are in some way seen as less valid than someone else's. I didn't think anyone actually hated one another.

Im not apologizing. Chameleons do not feel emotion, they need uvb, they need calcium, they need humidity, they need a varied diet. This isnt me pushing a view, this is me quoting what is seen as scientific fact and others arguing what has been proven as fact. What I see everyone getting offended over is somehow quoting a fact is belittling. If you heard a conersation about how chameleons dont need a basking bulb, would you not assume theyre just uniformed? Im sorry that this offends you Becca, honestly I do. The problem is that everyone is so staunch on there opinion on thos they refuse to see reason. Ive honestly done nothing but basically quote a text book.

Also, accusing me of a need to be right is a bit hypocritical. Ive yet to personally attack anyone, other than teasing @JoXie411 . If the evidence comes out to the contrary that they do in fact feel love, ill stick to the evidence. I have zero need to feel right, i couldnt honestyly care less. I just dont understand the mindset of ignoring studies and science.

We all love our chameleons. I don't think it matters at all that they don't love us back. I think your point was really important though because people can and have let a sort of "Projection" of emotions hide actual problems the chameleon's dealing w/.

 

[Kaizen]

Further to my last,

That question was for kobaoregonherper.

 

[Beman]

I did that exact thing!!!

I knew you would.... lol So by magic I mean... the first time I felt my daughter move when I was pregnant. How it feels to be truly loved by a man that really sees me. The way the forum held me together through the loss of Bahari. Magic.... There are these things that yes all can be explained away with scientific this and that but there is magic in the world. There is beauty that flows through everything. For you the beauty may be in a DNA sequence lol. Your scientific brain goes there probably easier then the beauty in a baby's eyes seeing the world for the first time. It is magic!

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

I knew you would.... lol So by magic I mean... the first time I felt my daughter move when I was pregnant. How it feels to be truly loved by a man that really sees me. The way the forum held me together through the loss of Bahari. Magic.... There are these things that yes all can be explained away with scientific this and that but there is magic in the world. There is beauty that flows through everything. For you the beauty may be in a DNA sequence lol. Your scientific brain goes there probably easier then the beauty in a baby's eyes seeing the world for the first time. It is magic!

Crying know .

 

[Beman]

Crying know ❤.

Love you!

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Love you!

Right back at you xoxo .

 

[snitz427]

Ok, I’ll get this started:

Def 1. Love just is the release of oxytocin paired with some other neurobiological activity, etc.

Results: this definition assumes a highly reductive account of love. One might, for instance, argue that love is the result of the above rather than strictly identical to it. This definition also rules out humans, who by birth irregularity, are unable to produce oxytocin. Likewise, depending on how you fill out the neurobiological extras, this account may or may not exclude all non-humans.

Def 2. Love is consistently acting to meet the needs of another being for no other reason than to secure that being’s happiness.

Results: this definition my be even more narrow than the former, as it would, by definition preclude anything unable to act (however you flesh out that term). So, people who are unconscious can’t love. Similarly, I think this definition would probably exclude most animals.

Def 3: ...well, you’ve all argued so vociferously about this, someone must have a working definition...

Love is not an emotion, as you pointed out earlier. I think many of us (myself especially) are arguing semantics.

My opinion is that, regardless of how medulla oblongatas makes alligators ornery, or that chameleons do not have the neurological capabilites to feel emotions as other animals do.... is that my chameleons most certainly clearly express fear, surprise, anxiety, and gambling addictions. Those, in my mind, by definition, are emotions - that they are clearly expressing. They may be triggered by certain stimuli, which triggers their fight or flight instinct... but those instinctual responses are a result of fear, surprise, and/or anxiety. So call it what you will, but the semantics of it are still there, I think.

I’m really not unhinged about this so I hope I am not coming across the wrong way. Discussions / arguments like these help me learn. I blame my job...

 

[AnamCara]

Love is not an emotion, as you pointed out earlier. I think many of us (myself especially) are arguing semantics.

my chameleons most certainly clearly express fear, surprise, anxiety, and gambling addictions.

Spit my coffee out Snitz!

 

[snitz427]

Spit my coffee out Snitz!

Damn autocorrect!

 

[Kaizen]

Love is not an emotion, as you pointed out earlier. I think many of us (myself especially) are arguing semantics.

My opinion is that, regardless of how medulla oblongatas makes alligators ornery, or that chameleons do not have the neurological capabilites to feel emotions as other animals do.... is that my chameleons most certainly clearly express fear, surprise, anxiety, and gambling addictions. Those, in my mind, by definition, are emotions - that they are clearly expressing. They may be triggered by certain stimuli, which triggers their fight or flight instinct... but those instinctual responses are a result of fear, surprise, and/or anxiety. So call it what you will, but the semantics of it are still there, I think.

I’m really not unhinged about this so I hope I am not coming across the wrong way. Discussions / arguments like these help me learn. I blame my job...

Nice! Just remember that the common phrase “it’s just semantics” is dreadful. Semantics is concerned with (formally) truth values, (informally) meaning. That makes semantics extremely important. For, if we don’t know what we mean, how can we talk, argue, discuss.

 

[Kaizen]

Further to my last,

I didn’t say love was not an emotion, I simply said that there are a number of other definitions of ‘love’. Personally, I’d argue for inclusion: love between people means x, love between dolphins means y, love between species means z.