The evils of mealworms

[DocZ]

I admitted earlier in another post that I break the cardinal rule of feeders and give 1-2 mealworms to my Chams once every 1-2 weeks. I’ve been peering out my windows for the angry mobs carrying torches and pitchforks to arrive. And now I’ve sat down to find out why the no mealworm mob constantly shoots them down as an appropriate occasional feeder.

The article that convinced me to add them back to the diet is here:
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...s-During-Growth.pdf?origin=publication_detail
Dr Finke was able to show that properly fed mealworms have decent nutritional value

It is frequently sited that mealworms have high chitin content and cause impaction. However, Dr Finke again suggests that this is not the case
“The data presented shows that on a dry matter basis the estimated chitin content of silkworm larvae is similar to that of crickets (both nymphs and adults) and mealworm larvae.”
http://fr.khepri.eu/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/10/Estimate-of-Chitin-in-Raw-Whole-Insects.pdf

John Courteney-Smith also suggests that the chitinous shell could “be useful in the digestive process as a source of dietary fibre,” in The Arcadia Guide to Reptile and Amphibian Nutrition.

In short, I’m having trouble finding a reason to avoid them entirely and they can easily be a welcome addition to a varied diet. They end up being one of about a dozen bugs that I give to my Chams. They’re easy to care for, they’re cheap.
I do not think they should be a “staple” feeder, but I’m sure they should not be demonized either

So far, this is the best reason I can find to avoid them entirely

 

[jamest0o0]

You're totally right, I remember seeing that article a couple years ago. That's why I stopped hating on mealworms. I don't think there's any problem with any feeder in moderation(assuming they're not toxic).

 

[DocZ]

I totally agree. Moderation and variety allows each feeder type to provide something beneficial that the others do not

 

[Fchamel]

I agree with you guys. Honestly, mealworms are not the best for what is offered but if it's your only choice for "right now" your chamelon will be ok. As long as they are gutload and fed healthy things for you cham. If I ever get mealworms I feed them to the birds outside because they like them.

 

[AmandaS]

I think the key to feeding off insects is variety.

I know though, some newbies like to over do one specific feeder as they call it a "staple", and I dont think mealworms would be a good staple like that.

I think of staples as the most common insects you feed off. The ones you usually have into rotation.
Then there are treats. Supers, waxworms....the occassional mealworm..

 

[AmandaS]

I do want to say that photo is nightmare fuel

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

View attachment 287113

I think I know that guy...

This mealworm thing has been a perennial debate in the bearded dragon community as well. Some of the old timers there have used mealies as staples when other feeders were unavailable, with no ill effects.

If we look at this table (source: https://dubiaroachdepot.com/guidance/20-dubia-roach-benefits)
meal worms have considerably less chiten content than banded crickets, wax worms, silk worms, houseflies, and other feeders.

There may be other nutritional reasons for preferring other feeders, but IMO, chitin shouldn't be one of them if used in moderation.

 

[DocZ]

I think I know that guy...

This mealworm thing has been a perennial debate in the bearded dragon community as well. Some of the old timers there have used mealies as staples when other feeders were unavailable, with no ill effects.

If we look at this table (source: https://dubiaroachdepot.com/guidance/20-dubia-roach-benefits)
meal worms have considerably less chiten content than banded crickets, wax worms, silk worms, houseflies, and other feeders.
View attachment 287153
There may be other nutritional reasons for preferring other feeders, but IMO, chitin shouldn't be one of them if used in moderation.

He is a pretty terrifying monster!

I totally agree moderation for every type of feeder is important. I think there is nutritional reasons to choose each feeder, and mealworms are no exception
The two bugs that my Chams get weekly are BSFL and silkworms. Everything else is fed once every two weeks
BSFL are mentioned in the article on chitin levels noting that they are one of the only insects that have calcium in the cuticle along with chitin, lipids, and Proteins which leads to their excellent Calcium to phosphorus ratio
Silkworms are one of only a handful of insects that contain PREformed Vitamin A (source: Mader’s reptile and amphibian medicine and surgery, p.211)

 

[jamest0o0]

He is a pretty terrifying monster!

I totally agree moderation for every type of feeder is important. I think there is nutritional reasons to choose each feeder, and mealworms are no exception
The two bugs that my Chams get weekly are BSFL and silkworms. Everything else is fed once every two weeks
BSFL are mentioned in the article on chitin levels noting that they are one of the only insects that have calcium in the cuticle along with chitin, lipids, and Proteins which leads to their excellent Calcium to phosphorus ratio
Silkworms are one of only a handful of insects that contain PREformed Vitamin A (source: Mader’s reptile and amphibian medicine and surgery, p.211)

I read on here somewhere that it's the chow that gives them the preformed vitamin A. No idea if that's true. I have that book though so I'll have to take a look at the page you mention, that's pretty interesting

 

[jamest0o0]

I tend to feel BSFL are overrated TBH. I have seen them in poop so many times which makes me question their digestibility. They also get heavily marketed for their calcium ratio, but that's really not a big deal at all considering we can dust other feeders. I think like anything, they're excellent to mix in, but too much hype surrounds them as staples for not much reason other than their calcium content.

 

[DocZ]

I read on here somewhere that it's the chow that gives them the preformed vitamin A. No idea if that's true. I have that book though so I'll have to take a look at the page you mention, that's pretty interesting

Definitely could be the source of the Vitamin A. From what I’ve read, most insects convert small amounts to supply to retinal for their compound eyes, but do not store any pREformed A

from Mader’s false katydids, migratory locusts, termites, silkworms, and 4 wild caught lepidopteran larvae are the only insects that are not Vitamin A deficient

 

[DocZ]

I read on here somewhere that it's the chow that gives them the preformed vitamin A. No idea if that's true. I have that book though so I'll have to take a look at the page you mention, that's pretty interesting

I need to get on the online content so I can check out the sources for that info in bibliography, but haven’t gotten around to it yet

 

[DocZ]

I tend to feel BSFL are overrated TBH. I have seen them in poop so many times which makes me question their digestibility. They also get heavily marketed for their calcium ratio, but that's really not a big deal at all considering we can dust other feeders. I think like anything, they're excellent to mix in, but too much hype surrounds them as staples for not much reason other than their calcium content.

You may be right. The reasons for me focusing on it is both the ca-p ratio, and It’s the only fly larvae I use (the T hoehnelii definitely like the green bottle fly maggots too). So for me, it’s something totally different than a cricket, or a roach, or a beetle larvae

 

[jamest0o0]

You may be right. The reasons for me focusing on it is both the ca-p ratio, and It’s the only fly larvae I use (the T hoehnelii definitely like the green bottle fly maggots too). So for me, it’s something totally different than a cricket, or a roach, or a beetle larvae

Yeah don't get me wrong, I don't think there's a problem with them. I know you're using them right. You just see newbies that think they can buy cups of BSFL and never need to offer anything else. Maggots apparently produce ammonia too, especially the bottle fly maggots.

 

[DocZ]

Yeah don't get me wrong, I don't think there's a problem with them. I know you're using them right. You just see newbies that think they can buy cups of BSFL and never need to offer anything else. Maggots apparently produce ammonia too, especially the bottle fly maggots.

I’ve heard the same. I never feed mine, and I’ve never noticed any odor. There’s probably a trade off to feeding them and keeping their nutrition up, but at least with BSFL, they retain their ca-p ratio throughout the life cycle since it’s in their cuticle

A healthy liver is also very adept at detoxification of ammonia, so any ammonia that enters an animal should be metabolized quickly

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Slight aside... While I was making my weekly crix run today, I picked up another 50ct. of meal worms because I knew I only had a few left. I put the two containers on the kitch table, planning to transfer the few from the older container to the new container... then promptly mixed up the containers.

I figured it out after picking out the tenth mealie from the one container, and finding a beetle in it to boot.

I got it sorted out, but wound up sifting the new container, and now there are ~60 in the old container.

HEAVY SIGH.

 

[DocZ]

Slight aside... While I was making my weekly crix run today, I picked up another 50ct. of meal worms because I knew I only had a few left. I put the two containers on the kitch table, planning to transfer the few from the older container to the new container... then promptly mixed up the containers.

I figured it out after picking out the tenth mealie from the one container, and finding a beetle in it to boot.

I got it sorted out, but wound up sifting the new container, and now there are ~60 in the old container.

HEAVY SIGH.

Bummer
They metamorphose pretty quick. I keep mine in a wine fridge at 55 F, and end up tossing out 4 or 5 pupae every time. They’re probably fine to feed I suppose, but I’m not interested in feeding them or breeding them

 

[Klyde O'Scope]

Bummer
They metamorphose pretty quick. I keep mine in a wine fridge at 55 F, and end up tossing out 4 or 5 pupae every time. They’re probably fine to feed I suppose, but I’m not interested in feeding them or breeding them

Yeah... regular fridge is OK for mealies, and seems to slow down their metamorphosing.
Haven't found any grubs yet, and as I understand it, most lizards aren't terribly picky about it.

 

[jamest0o0]

So I've never bred mealworms and haven't fed any for years and years. Will they readily breed without doing anything special(as you would with superworms)

 

[DocZ]

So I've never bred mealworms and haven't fed any for years and years. Will they readily breed without doing anything special(as you would with superworms)

From what I’ve seen, yes. Throw the beetles in some sort of grain (oats maybe?) and the substrate will be full of tiny mealworms

I’ve heard the beetles may snack on the pupae if they’re not separated out