The definitive lighting thread! Everything you really need to know

[Chameleopatrick]

Wow, you will not find a better lighting thread for chameleons anywhere. Thanks Todd!

This thread is GRUMPY CHAM approved!

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Todd, Thank you for answering my questions in such detail. The basis of my questions was primarily to ascertain if my animals had been getting UVB in any trace amounts. I am aware of all of the studies that prove that oral vitamin d3 is not absorbed properly if at all, so I surmised that my chameleons must be getting some UVB from the regular bulbs. Now thanks to the details you've provided, I know that can't possibly be the case.

Which leaves me even more confused. I wonder how are my animals even alive, much less producing viable offspring for several generations? I think there is still probably more we don't know about this subject than what we do know.

I do look forward to one day trying out some UVB bulbs to see if it makes a discernible difference in their activity levels, appetite, or breeding behavior.

Again, I am not skeptical that providing UVB is the most healthy way for them to synthesize vitamin D, but what it has always boiled down to for me was cost verses benefit.

Some people might say, "Well of course, the health of each of your animals is worth it and I'd spend whatever it takes". That is easy to say when you have a handful of cages, but what about 100 of them? Then those same people might say, "Well if you can't put the right bulbs over all of your cages, you shouldn't be producing the animals." I think that is narrow minded. Reptiles were successfully bred for many years before these bulbs were invented and perfected. And if those animals are breeding for several generations with hatch rates nearing 100 percent, who can judge?

Here's what I hope happens, when I do get to try them out, my chameleons immediately perk up and take notice. They look happy and hungry and their colors brighten. The females immediately become receptive and the males mount them. I really hope so, because if my animals have done this well without the bulbs, imagine the possibilities with them. If that happens, I will budget enough to buy one fixture with bulbs every month until I have one over every cage.

Thank you for taking your time to explain all of this to me.

While chameleons are reptiles, they are truly unique. Even amongst their own species their habitat requirements vary to incredible extremes.

Sometimes years of "other reptile experience" can actually be a detriment to your chameleon understanding. Solely because what we don't consciously know about chameleons through personal experience, we substitute what we know in other common reptiles. I know I did in the early 90's with my Quads. What has worked for Agamids with nutritional d3 may not at all work Triocerous or Pygmy chameleons.

You have made a couple of interesting points and I respect them.

I do highly recommend you upgrade your lighting. Will you see an immediate difference within a week? Not likely. Will your chameleons benefit from the best you can offer with today's understanding and technology? I believe they will.

 

[Spangoss]

My thanks to the contributors of this thread.

Admins, please can we make this thread stickied?

 

[Chameleopatrick]

My thanks to the contributors of this thread.

Admins, please can we make this thread stickied?

Thanks for reading it! Hopefully you could get some tid bits of info. that you can apply.

 

[Tanaka]

In Japan you are Sensei Chameleopatrick. So many idea to share.

Can you ship chameleon to Japan from America? Must go to work now.

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Wow! Thank you Tanakasan.

I've been to Japan 2 times. I lived at the KODOKAN for a few months.

I don't know about chameleons to Japan sorry. Maybe you can start a thread about chameleons in Japan?

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Hey Todd, I need a new UVB 12% bulb to do a 16 month usage comparison. To determine the deterioration rate so we can publish it. 36 " in stock? I will also demonstrate the power of these bulbs at the inaugural Northwest Chameleon Keepers Society meeting.

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Since the first page is full of basic lighting questions again.

 

[Lpsouth1978]

This is a great thread!!! I am just setting up my first enclosure and used much of the information in this thread to make my lighting decisions. Hopefully I chose wisely.

I chose to get a fixture from Aquatraders.com. It is a 24" with 4xT5HO 24W bulbs. The bulbs it comes with are 6500K and I plan on replacing 1 with an Arcadia 6% or 12% (not sure which will be better)

Will this be enough light for a planted Viv to thrive? I thought so until I started reading about needing 24000 lumens and such. I can probably add some LED's down the road if more light is needed.

Also, is it ok, or necessary, to use the Arcadia 12% to get past the loss from the screen top? I will be getting a veiled for this enclosure. The viv measures 36"w x 18"d x 48"h.

 

[nightanole]

WOOOOO i got my meter. I have been without a uv meter since 2005.

Any who i got a solarmeter 6.5 that does uv index since it has a semi broad uv range (full uvb instead of just the 285nm peak)

Here are my measurements:

Ohio august 23 2013 partly cloudy with sun peaking out behind cloud 11am: 3.0 UVI
Full sun 2pm 5.8 UVI
Full sun 2pm in the shade 1.5 UVI (measured under a few oak trees and bird garden shrubs)

42" LYR hood+ reflector no screen with 6% and 6500k 6 months old: 1.8 UVI @ 12" .7 UVI @ 24"

42" LYR hood+ refector no screen with 12% and 6500k 1 month old: 3.5 UVI at 12" 2.8 UVI @ 15" (beardy rock level)

With a 40 to 1 conversion for UVB µW/cm² to UVI, that would make the cham cage 72 UVB µW/cm²at basking and 28 UVB µW/cm²mid tank.

For the beardy that would be 112 UVB µW/cm² at basking rock.


So using those numbers. You could simulated a out in the open no shade semi cloudy day with a 12% at 12-18".

Now mind you the 6.2 and 6.5 meters can vary 20%, Its kinda like having your own yard stick. Still my readings of the bulbs can be compared to my summer measurements outdoors. You should not compare my bulb readings to your bulb readings. You should "calibrate" your reading by measuring outside what you hope to achieve inside.


As a side note, someone measured a reptisun 10.0
"ZooMed Reptisun 10.0 tube, at 12 inches distance:
6.2 reading: 24 µW/cm².
6.5 reading: UV Index 0.7"

 

[Chameleopatrick]

WOOOOO i got my meter. I have been without a uv meter since 2005.

Any who i got a solarmeter 6.5 that does uv index since it has a semi broad uv range (full uvb instead of just the 285nm peak)

Here are my measurements:

Ohio august 23 2013 partly cloudy with sun peaking out behind cloud 11am: 3.0 UVI
Full sun 2pm 5.8 UVI
Full sun 2pm in the shade 1.5 UVI (measured under a few oak trees and bird garden shrubs)

42" LYR hood+ reflector no screen with 6% and 6500k 6 months old: 1.8 UVI @ 12" .7 UVI @ 24"

42" LYR hood+ refector no screen with 12% and 6500k 1 month old: 3.5 UVI at 12" 2.8 UVI @ 15" (beardy rock level)

With a 40 to 1 conversion for UVB µW/cm² to UVI, that would make the cham cage 72 UVB µW/cm²at basking and 28 UVB µW/cm²mid tank.

For the beardy that would be 112 UVB µW/cm² at basking rock.


So using those numbers. You could simulated a out in the open no shade semi cloudy day with a 12% at 12-18".

Now mind you the 6.2 and 6.5 meters can vary 20%, Its kinda like having your own yard stick. Still my readings of the bulbs can be compared to my summer measurements outdoors. You should not compare my bulb readings to your bulb readings. You should "calibrate" your reading by measuring outside what you hope to achieve inside.


As a side note, someone measured a reptisun 10.0
"ZooMed Reptisun 10.0 tube, at 12 inches distance:
6.2 reading: 24 µW/cm².
6.5 reading: UV Index 0.7"

By your numbers the Reptisun looks like a total waste of money. I guess thats is another reason to buy T5 HO lights versus T8. Significant increase in output.

 

[nightanole]

By your numbers the Reptisun looks like a total waste of money. I guess thats is another reason to buy T5 HO lights versus T8. Significant increase in output.

Eh it depends on the tank. A reptisun 10.0 would be perfect for a 18"-24" tall tank. I wouldnt want to put a 6% on that short of a tank, you wouldnt have a zero uv section for the cham to hide/regulate from.

 

[wacky22jacki]

Extremely Helpful!

 

[Chameleopatrick]

Eh it depends on the tank. A reptisun 10.0 would be perfect for a 18"-24" tall tank. I wouldnt want to put a 6% on that short of a tank, you wouldnt have a zero uv section for the cham to hide/regulate from.

I have used an arcadia 12% bulb on a 24" high glass exoterra baby habitat for 18 months with great results, fantastic. It was used for Montane species. Of course they are planted and there are plenty of areas to escape the UVB.

Are you just assuming your information? Because nothing you have claimed is remotely accurate based on my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE especially your tanks size comment, using the variables you talk about.

Are you just guessing that a 6% bulb is too much? It sure looks like it from here. Ive shown pictures of the results and distances in this thread and all you do is speculate about numbers and cage sizes?

A 12% bulb UVB reading at 3" through screen.

How is 1/2 to 1/3 of Natural UVB too much at 3"?
At 8" its only 15% of direct natural UVB.

Chameleons need to regulate their exposure by moving in and out of shady areas as needed. Supplying higher concentrations of UVB with ample hiding places closer represents the habitats the chameleons originate from.

Saying that a certain size cage with a number representing the UVB output is the basis for determining the right bulb is grossly insufficient and borderline misinformation.

Besides knowing your specific species and natural habitats, knowing the UVB volume at the specific basking area(s) is whats most important. BASKING is absorbing heat and UVB. Basking areas require more heat and more UVB than the ambient temp and UVB in surrounding areas to do it properly.

My basking areas have UVB in the 100-140 microwatt range and that is less than half of what natural direct sunlight is. When the chams have had enough they move to other cooler less exposed areas of the habitat.

Screen cell size that allows the UVB to pass through has way more importance than the size of the cage.

 

[chefboyardee]

Awesome thread

I read through this http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/artificial-ultraviolet-exposure-chameleon.pdf and Im a little confused; there's some conflicting info (strictly UVB based) that suggests levels as low as 7 µW/cm²over a 12hr photoperiod were "optimal."

"Higher levels" worked with reduced photoperiods (still sticking to a standard 12hr UVA exposure), but the highest exposures were still only about 50 µW/cm²... They state that in natural sunlight the chameleons can adjust their exposure, but in an enclosure they noted that "with a large UV gradient and numerous escape possibilities, the female did not seem able to behaviorally regulate to a more optimal UVB exposure," and that they "may not be able to photoregulate effectively in an artificial UV gradient that provides too strong a UVB irradiance."
I just thought it was weird, considering a lot of people are reporting long term success with UVB levels higher than 100 µW/cm²
granted this paper only deals with female panthers and is fairly old, and Im sure UVB bulbs have advanced considerably since then. Interested to hear your take on it though, think its just an isolated example?

 

[Chameleopatrick]

That was a great read. Thanks Chefboyardee.

The technology used in that study is quite obsolete compared to whats available today. It does confirm my belief that long term indoor care requires excellent lighting for health and reproduction. Thanks for your contribution.

Awesome thread

I read through this http://www.reptileuvinfo.com/docs/artificial-ultraviolet-exposure-chameleon.pdf and Im a little confused; there's some conflicting info (strictly UVB based) that suggests levels as low as 7 µW/cm²over a 12hr photoperiod were "optimal."

"Higher levels" worked with reduced photoperiods (still sticking to a standard 12hr UVA exposure), but the highest exposures were still only about 50 µW/cm²... They state that in natural sunlight the chameleons can adjust their exposure, but in an enclosure they noted that "with a large UV gradient and numerous escape possibilities, the female did not seem able to behaviorally regulate to a more optimal UVB exposure," and that they "may not be able to photoregulate effectively in an artificial UV gradient that provides too strong a UVB irradiance."
I just thought it was weird, considering a lot of people are reporting long term success with UVB levels higher than 100 µW/cm²
granted this paper only deals with female panthers and is fairly old, and Im sure UVB bulbs have advanced considerably since then. Interested to hear your take on it though, think its just an isolated example?

 

[nightanole]

"12% bulb on a 24""

Im not arguing. Look at my numbers. At 15" from my new 12% i was getting the same reading as partly cloudy noon fully exposed numbers.

Your numbers look great in the baby tank. at 8" its at 1uvi. At 12" with my 12% i was pulling 3 time that, which was the same numbers as i was pulling outside in partial shade. if i put My setup on top of your baby tank with no screen, there is a good chance that even at the very bottom of the tank you still would be getting 40uw/1uvi.



Im going by MY numbers i pulled out by going out side. Your setup through screen is putting less than half my numbers. Thats why im saying i would not be running a T5 HO in a short tank.

Im recommending numbers that i am pulling from partial shade as upper recommendations. I cant recommend higher than partial shade for a "shade reptile" incase the cage setup is no optimal with no shade from plants etc. The cham setup might be jsut a bunch of criss cross sticks with a potho in hte middle.

 

[chefboyardee]

That was a great read. Thanks Chefboyardee.

The technology used in that study is quite obsolete compared to whats available today. It does confirm my belief that long term indoor care requires excellent lighting for health and reproduction. Thanks for your contribution.

figured as much, a lot can advance in 10yrs time


separate question:
Im in the process of upgrading my lighting for a heavily planted 2x2x4 to a t5 system

due to the limited space up top, I can only really get a 24" t5-fixture. Ive found a great deal on a 4-bulb 20" fixture, but havent been able to find any 18" t5 UVB bulbs. Do you (or does anyone else) know of a place that sells 18" UVB bulbs? Zilla apparently sells them, but I've heard bad things about their bulbs. Everyone else seems to start at 22" bulbs

If not i can just jump to the 24" 4-bulb fixture, but for the sake of free space the 20" would be easier

 

[Lpsouth1978]

figured as much, a lot can advance in 10yrs time


separate question:
Im in the process of upgrading my lighting for a heavily planted 2x2x4 to a t5 system

due to the limited space up top, I can only really get a 24" t5-fixture. Ive found a great deal on a 4-bulb 20" fixture, but havent been able to find any 18" t5 UVB bulbs. Do you (or does anyone else) know of a place that sells 18" UVB bulbs? Zilla apparently sells them, but I've heard bad things about their bulbs. Everyone else seems to start at 22" bulbs

If not i can just jump to the 24" 4-bulb fixture, but for the sake of free space the 20" would be easier

I have not been able to find any 18" UVB T5's either. I finally got this fixture and put a ReptiSun 10.0 in it. $80 with free shipping and 6500K bulbs. My plants are thriving under it. Hopefully my chameleon will do just as well. I don't use the blue moon lights, but I love the built in timer. They also have a version without the timer, but it has external ballasts which I don't like.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T5-Quad-24-...143?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ba27fecf

 

[chefboyardee]

I have not been able to find any 18" UVB T5's either. I finally got this fixture and put a ReptiSun 10.0 in it. $80 with free shipping and 6500K bulbs. My plants are thriving under it. Hopefully my chameleon will do just as well. I don't use the blue moon lights, but I love the built in timer. They also have a version without the timer, but it has external ballasts which I don't like.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T5-Quad-24-...143?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ba27fecf

HA! that was the exact model I was looking at as well, Odyssea makes some questionable stuff in terms of quality, but this is just for plants and a cham... I dont think Ill need the same degree of quality as I would If I was running a reef tank again

let us know how it works out for you, ill do the same when I get my fixture