The D3 Conundrum

CasqueAbove

Chameleon Enthusiast
This is something I have been looking into more and more. How is it with such well prescribed and documented care, why are there so many D3 issues? I think there might be a couple factors that play into this. One is technology, we now have better UV lights and if set up correct we may not even need D3 as it is documented that with a basking of 3 UVB Chameleons can produce enough D3 on their own. Yet we are still following the standard supplementation. This is done because in a cage the UV is not an even spread like out doors so we need to supplement even with a proper UV range. This is a bit of a gray area because one cham may really like his basking branch while another spends more time hiding or out of prime UV. This alone could create slightly different needs, though probably minor if using a correct set up.
The bigger problem can come from our supplements. They are not always clear on how they are expected to be used. As an example I was using Sticky Tongue Farms Indoor for my D3 every other week and Flukers Multi on opposing weeks, just as prescribed. Well as I started looking closer the Sticky Tongue suggests 3 times a week and has 4400 i.u. and as it turns out the Flukers has no suggested amount, but has 10,000 i.u. So wait a minute here are we giving way too much, I think so especially with proper UV lighting.

So what is the proper amount? Do we assume the Flukers is a once a week ? And thus 10,000 to 12,000 ui (3 times a week with Sticky Tongue) ? With these gray areas it would be interesting if we could come up with a more accurate dosage. I believe it was @Sonny13 that did the Database on plant eating. I was thinking of a similar idea for supplements. If we could collect the info on what brands are used , the lighting setup, how often and how many feeders. This with the age of the animal how long it has been on it or was on it and what if any issues were seen.

Would we be interested it trying to gather this information? If so give likes and I will put something together to collect the information. The information is out there between all of us I thing we may be able to come up with something.
 

ERKleRose

Chameleon Enthusiast
I’ve looked this up before, and here’s some levels in other brands, too:
  • Zoo Med Reptivite With D3: 22,907 IU/kg
  • Zoo Med ReptiCalcium With D3: 22,907 IU/kg
  • Sticky Tongue Farms Miner-All Indoor: 4,400 IU/kg
  • Arcadia RevitaliseD3: 5,000 IU/kg
  • Repashy Calcium Plus: 44,000 IU/kg
  • Repashy Calcium Plus LoD: 17, 600 IU/kg
 

CasqueAbove

Chameleon Enthusiast
I’ve looked this up, and here’s some levels in other brands, too:
  • Zoo Med Reptivite With D3: 22,907 IU/kg
  • Zoo Med ReptiCalcium With D3: 22,907 IU/kg
  • Sticky Tongue Farms Miner-All Indoor: 4,400 IU/kg
  • Arcadia RevitaliseD3: 5,000 IU/kg
  • Repashy Calcium Plus: 44,000 IU/kg
  • Repashy Calcium Plus LoD: 17, 600 IU/kg
Right so given all these numbers it is no wonder things go wrong.
 

Sonny13

Chameleon Enthusiast
This is something I have been looking into more and more. How is it with such well prescribed and documented care, why are there so many D3 issues? I think there might be a couple factors that play into this. One is technology, we now have better UV lights and if set up correct we may not even need D3 as it is documented that with a basking of 3 UVB Chameleons can produce enough D3 on their own. Yet we are still following the standard supplementation. This is done because in a cage the UV is not an even spread like out doors so we need to supplement even with a proper UV range. This is a bit of a gray area because one cham may really like his basking branch while another spends more time hiding or out of prime UV. This alone could create slightly different needs, though probably minor if using a correct set up.
The bigger problem can come from our supplements. They are not always clear on how they are expected to be used. As an example I was using Sticky Tongue Farms Indoor for my D3 every other week and Flukers Multi on opposing weeks, just as prescribed. Well as I started looking closer the Sticky Tongue suggests 3 times a week and has 4400 i.u. and as it turns out the Flukers has no suggested amount, but has 10,000 i.u. So wait a minute here are we giving way too much, I think so especially with proper UV lighting.

So what is the proper amount? Do we assume the Flukers is a once a week ? And thus 10,000 to 12,000 ui (3 times a week with Sticky Tongue) ? With these gray areas it would be interesting if we could come up with a more accurate dosage. I believe it was @Sonny13 that did the Database on plant eating. I was thinking of a similar idea for supplements. If we could collect the info on what brands are used , the lighting setup, how often and how many feeders. This with the age of the animal how long it has been on it or was on it and what if any issues were seen.

Would we be interested it trying to gather this information? If so give likes and I will put something together to collect the information. The information is out there between all of us I thing we may be able to come up with something.
Interesting 👌🏻

Correct, I made the spreadsheet, could share it with you.
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
RepCal D3+ 400,000 IU/kg
Fluckers Reptacalcium 100,000 IU/lb
Exoterra 14,740 IU/lb
ZooMed ReptiCalcium 22,907 IU/kg
Mineral -indoor 2000ui per kg
Repashy calcium plus LoD 8,000 IU/lb

I dont have the time right now to convert kg to lbs, but just pretend that the 8,000 IU/lb is 20,000 ui/kg



20k seems to be the popular mid range
 
Last edited:

CasqueAbove

Chameleon Enthusiast
RepCal D3+ 400,000 IU/kg
Fluckers Reptacalcium 100,000 IU/lb
Exoterra 14,740 IU/lb
ZooMed ReptiCalcium 22,907 IU/kg
Mineral -indoor 2000ui per kg
Repashy calcium plus LoD 8,000 IU/lb

I dont have the time right now to convert kg to lbs, but just pretend that the 8,000 IU/lb is 20,000 ui/kg



20k seems to be the popular mid range
That's kind of what I see. The scary ones are the 100k plus. What if this was you twice a month ? Man.
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
That's kind of what I see. The scary ones are the 100k plus. What if this was you twice a month ? Man.

Tegu gets "Repashy calcium plus" non LOD, which is 20,000 IU/lb 44,444 iu/kg, but thats because they only see the light of day for an hour or two with a proper setup.

My chams worked great with sticky every feeding, and ancient .25-.5 UVI reptisun 5.0/ vitalites back in the 90's and early 2000's.

My ousts didnt mind the every feeding either, even with a 1.5 uvi target with the arcadia 6%T5HO.
 

Flick boy

Chameleon Enthusiast
Hi so my 50 cents worth. So we recommend light dusting ! But one person's pinch could be another person's dollop. Would it not be fair to say any supplements should/ could be weighted on microgram scales which correspond with the weight of the cham . Or am I talking %$#.
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
Hi so my 50 cents worth. So we recommend light dusting ! But one person's pinch could be another person's dollop. Would it not be fair to say any supplements should/ could be weighted on microgram scales which correspond with the weight of the cham . Or am I talking %$#.

A female adult dubia is the same calories as a dozen banded crickets, yet has vastly less surface area(odds are 3-5 times less) for dusting. Same with silkies and supers, vastly less surface area per gram vs crickets.

So i guess you could figure out how to get xx grams into the chameleon each week by just filling the shaker cup and run till empty. That is still going to be incredibly hard, you would need a milligram medicine scale.
 

Flick boy

Chameleon Enthusiast
So hard but not impossible. When I feed my girl I target the largest feeder in her container with the supplements
 

nightanole

Chameleon Enthusiast
So hard but not impossible. When I feed my girl I target the largest feeder in her container with the supplements

Yea once you figure out the dose you like (weight very light cup with out feeder in it, before and after coating said feeder) you can kinda figure out the weight.

I use one of these types which is good for 1mg +-1mg accuracy, but i use it for 10-50mg people dosing:


https://www.amazon.com/THINKSCALE-Milligrams-Precision-Professional-Calibration/dp/B0885S1766
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Queen
My idea for supplementing has always been to dust twice a month with the D3 quite lightly. This should/is intended to provide less than enough D3 but leave it so that if we provide the proper UVB it can bask to produce the rest.
This way we aren't overdosing the D3 with supplements but if the UVB light isn't quite up to par at least the chameleon has some from the supplements.

I know it's not an exact science since we not only don't measure the amount needed to dust with accurately nor can we ensure that the UVB light will definitely give the chameleon enough to produce the rest.

Do chameleons regulate their exposure to the UVB? If so then this will help too...because if you provide most of the D3 from supplements somehow, they can sit in the sun/UVB or not depending on how much more they need to reach what they need...
http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatr...-is-affected-by-vitamin-d-needs/#.YPsyD-us-K0

https://www.researchgate.net/public...to_UV_Depending_on_Dietary_Vitamin_D-3_Status
 
Last edited:

Flick boy

Chameleon Enthusiast
Has there or is there amy studies on seasonal uvi/ uvb levels available to panthers in Madagascar?
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Queen
Does this help @Flick boy ?

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30474137/

This...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33559914/

"Preliminary field data reveal that this species occupies UV irradiance Zone 4 in Madagascar, the highest zone for reptiles recorded. Only the irradiance of the high UVB irradiance group in our experiment approached this zone and resulted in the best reproductive success. Biosynthesis of vitamin D3 and provisioning to eggs is more efficient when exposure to UVB irradiance is similar to that in their natural environment. Establishing an optimal UVB environment, based on knowledge of the natural UVB environment, is important for the propagation of Panther Chameleons in captivity."
 
Top Bottom