Taming - Devil's Advocate

[Katacara]

I just wanted to pay Devil's advocate for a moment on the issue of taming your cham

I have read the taming posts on the "correct" way to tame a cham... But is all that sitting around with your hand in the air really necessary?

Just so there are no misunderstandings, I am in no means an expert on chams (and I am in no way clamming to be), in truth I have only had my first baby cham for about a month, so obviously there is a very good chance I have no idea what I am talking about!

In my short experience with Peepers I have found the only way I can get him to come out of his cage is to play "chase the cham" with him. He shows no sighs of stress, or aggressive behavior during our "game" and actually brightens up to a wonderful green when he sees me in front of his cage. Don't get me wrong it is a very slow nonthreatening sort of "game" and I never force him off a branch or handle him roughly. I also do not force him if he makes it obvious that he does not want to play.

I know that I am technically doing this wrong but in our situation it seems to work. I am disabled and cannot property keep my hand/arm hanging in mid air while standing at his cage. I got him so young that I'm hoping that this is not either currently or in the future going to have an adverse effect.

Any input would be helpful! Thanks

 

[jajeanpierre]

@Katacara What exactly do you expect of your chameleon? What kind of interactions did you envision when you started this journey with Peepers?

"Chase the cham" and "no signs of stress" should never be in the same sentence, and "game" is an oxymoron in this context. There is no joy for a chameleon that is being hunted down, however slowly, by a predator that outweighs him by multiples of hundreds.

I understand you have only had your chameleon for a short period of time, but surely common sense would tell you that chasing an animal down, an animal whose only defense against predation is hiding, just has to be stressful.

I am quite sure you are misinterpreting his colors and confusing bright green with contented. His brightness is a sign of stress and it would seem, based on his reaction to you whenever you approach the cage, that you have trained him very well to see you as a threat since he now brightens up every time you approach.

I am firmly in the camp that views chameleons in general as a "look but don't touch" kind of a pet. Others think some chameleons enjoy handling. My gut feeling is that at best, some tolerate it a lot better than others. In time, I've found all my chameleons have settled down and gotten used to me. I have a large collection of wild caughts, many imported as mature adults. Some are downright obnoxious when I open their cage and will thwap me with their tongue any time they can expecting it to be food (picture below). As you can see by that picture, she is not at all bothered by my presence. I have never handled her other than to quickly grab her and pull her out of the cage to do whatever it was I needed to do with her. I haven't spent any time "taming" her other than to offer her food by hand that has Vitamin A oil on it. She will run to the front of the cage when I approach, but fears I just might kill her when I catch her up.

It is important to understand that stress is not an emotion. It is a physiological state of being. It is a cascade of stress hormones that flood the circulatory system and do not go away immediately when the stressor is removed. It can be chronic and low level such as being housed at the wrong temperatures for the species or it can be a near-death experience--at least from the chameleon's perspective--such as when I grab my chameleon about the body to restrain it to give it medications. Stress has a physiological cost to the animal such as lowering their immune system.

I've never really found chameleons sophisticated enough to truly be tamed but I've never really tried. They don't form any social bonds with members of their own species, even mates or their young. I've found they all know me recognize me and are quite fearful of strangers. Some are more tolerant than others and some species are more tolerant than others. In general, I've found chameleons to usually be very passive when in situations when I know they must be very, very afraid. For example, I took a newly imported (wild caught) sub adult male to the vet. He sat calmly on the edge of his box and presented us with his normal relaxed colors. He did not shy away, hiss or puff up when examined. He didnt' even lift his foot in that karate-chop stress pose they often do. To the observer, he looked calm and tame. Logic tells me he had to be terrified, sitting on the edge of a box out in the open on a shiny steel table with bright lights and no place to hide and no effective defense strategies to deal with two big ape predators poking him.

I'm not a fan of spending a lot of time trying to desensitize a chameleon to your presence. They'll get used to you no matter what you do as long as you don't over spend on your trust account. Think of your relationship with your chameleon in the form of a bank account of trust. You put in more trusting experiences than you withdraw. The chasing game is a withdrawal. Hand feeding a goodie is a deposit.

Good luck. I hope I helped you understand your chameleon a little better.

 

[jamest0o0]

I couldn't agree more with @jajeanpierre on this. She is also one of our very experienced keepers and breeders here. Those bright colors you're seeing are stress colors. Chams have not evolved to form social bonds, it makes no sense for them to. A few weeks of handling your cham isn't going to change their biology.

 

[Katacara]

So in looking at my original post again and your responses I can totally see why there was a misunderstanding. I do not however feel like it was necessary to treat me like I am some 5 year-old playing too rough with a puppy, and implying that I have no intelligence or common sense. I freely admit that I was not fully informed when I rescued Peepers off of Craigslist, however that was due to asking months and months of questions to pet store staff. I was not just walking along one day and thought he looked cool leading to an impulse buy. When I did quickly discover that I had a lot of things that needed correction, I fixed them right away. I have also spent hours and hours reading the information provided here learning whatever I can to be the best cham owner I can be.

With that said I am hoping I can clear up a few things. I do not stand in front of Peepers cage chasing him all around! I only handle him right now when it is nice enough to bring him outside for a bit, and if he has a vet visit. What I meant by playing chase the cham was that I hold out my hand/finger and gently try to get him to step up on to it. If he turns around, or goes somewhere other than on me I just let him go.

 

[jamest0o0]

I dont see where anyone implied you had poor intelligence? You're playing devil's advocate as a new cham keeper, you're going to get those kind of responses, what did you expect? I think the response was very fair and not condescending in any way. Regardless of intelligence, someone that is uninformed would not know those things unless told otherwise, it's not an attack on you. When you use the words chase and cham together, especially in a forum meant for people to learn better chameleon husbandry, you're going to get schooled a little, but no offense was meant at all. And I don't mean to sound rude, but you're lack of understanding wuth bright colors implied you may need to be told about their body language and stress signals. Nothing wrong with it either way, it's a discussion, no reason to be upset over being taught something.

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

So in looking at my original post again and your responses I can totally see why there was a misunderstanding. I do not however feel like it was necessary to treat me like I am some 5 year-old playing too rough with a puppy, and implying that I have no intelligence or common sense. I freely admit that I was not fully informed when I rescued Peepers off of Craigslist, however that was due to asking months and months of questions to pet store staff. I was not just walking along one day and thought he looked cool leading to an impulse buy. When I did quickly discover that I had a lot of things that needed correction, I fixed them right away. I have also spent hours and hours reading the information provided here learning whatever I can to be the best cham owner I can be.

With that said I am hoping I can clear up a few things. I do not stand in front of Peepers cage chasing him all around! I only handle him right now when it is nice enough to bring him outside for a bit, and if he has a vet visit. What I meant by playing chase the cham was that I hold out my hand/finger and gently try to get him to step up on to it. If he turns around, or goes somewhere other than on me I just let him go.

Hi @Katacara im not an expert I'm not contradicting anyone . I was under the Believe that chameleon are a look but don't touch kinda pet , Till We got one then 2 . I think it's so very important to know your chameleon and what your chameleon tolerates . What's your chameleon limits . Some stress is ok scaring ones chameleon is another thing . They absolutely do get used to their surroundings and their keeper . One may call that tolerating and other call that bonding . It's all about trust and I don't believe that chameleons are dumb !!. Theirs also Amazing keepers on this sight that handle and do believe in bonds one will never change their minds as other will never change their mind on look but don't touch .

 

[CharlieCharmingo]

First I agree with @jajeanpierre , I respect her opinions, (lol I respect most opinions), you should not try to force your cham out at any circumstance unless they need to be out for cleaning or vet etc. Sometimes bright color do in fact mean stress or fear just like it could mean excitement. You really have to get to know your guy or lady I think before you attempt any handling. however coming from the other side of the spectrum, if you want to try to handle your Cham better without wearing out your arm you could try this:

1. Hand feed always a sure fire way most times.
2. You could try taking a break from the chase for like a week or so. Then slowly try to hand feed. After a couple of hand feed one day just leave the cage door open and do something completely unrelated to the Cham like read or work or fold clothes just so he/she sees you don't "give a damn" about what they are doing. This takes a long time though so it's not a one week fix type deal. Anyway just keep doing this as often as you can and letting her/him see you hold no threat. After a little while of this give her a treat and close the gate back. If you're lucky eventually they'll come out of the cage themselves. Keep ignoring them though and after a little while give them another treat and put them back again. And if that works when it's out try letting it get on you and take it outside or whatever you need to do with it. Give it a treat to show it's okay and another when you put them back. Eventually you should get a tolerant little chameleon. Chameleons are like two year olds everything has to be on their terms. This is what I did with my chameleon. Once he trusted me i would chameleon proof an area and let him free roam. He would often freeze when he saw me so I would sit down to do some work so he could see I really wasn't interested in him. Now I got a free roaming freak.

Now I must state even though I said that and it worked for my chameleon it by NO MEANS mean it will work for yours. Every chameleon is different. I took a lot of time with my chameleon working with him and I watched him carefully to see what was his limits and such. But this might not work, you could possible have a chameleon that simply won't accept handling. And if that's the case (not saying it is) you should respect that and cause it the least amount of stress.

Good luck with your attempts though!

 

[etclement]

I am quite sure you are misinterpreting his colors and confusing bright green with contented. His brightness is a sign of stress and it would seem, based on his reaction to you whenever you approach the cage, that you have trained him very well to see you as a threat since he now brightens up every time you approach.

Color changes due to stress are overlooked so much! Thank you for pointing this out. I feel like we as keepers overlook one of the most weirdest things to overlook, which is the reason most of us were interested in chams in the first place: changing color!
Handling is a very stressful thing for any chameleon. If you look at my profile picture, you will notice my chameleon, Clay, displaying bright yellows and sky blues. He wasn't particularly happy with me because I had to take him out and clean the cage. His yellows are normally copper and his blues are usually olive when he's in his own cage. That said, chameleons are nearly always stressed when handled, which is why I don't advocate for handling for fun, but rather for sunlight, ease of vet visits, better feeding response etc. The fact that he is bright green inside the cage with you around means he doesn't feel safe. If you get peepers to think of you as a provider and not a predator, you might be able to handle him. As for the whole "chase the cham" thing, let him come to you. How I try to get Clay out is by leading him on to a fake plant with a food item. Even with positive reinforcement like sunlight after the cham is outside the cage, they will still think of you as bad. Believe me. Regrettably, I did this for a week or so with Clay, and it took about another 2.5 weeks to get him to come on to my hand again. Get the cham to think of you as safe first, then handle later!

 

[Katacara]

Thanks

 

[jajeanpierre]

So in looking at my original post again and your responses I can totally see why there was a misunderstanding. I do not however feel like it was necessary to treat me like I am some 5 year-old playing too rough with a puppy, and implying that I have no intelligence or common sense. I freely admit that I was not fully informed when I rescued Peepers off of Craigslist, however that was due to asking months and months of questions to pet store staff. I was not just walking along one day and thought he looked cool leading to an impulse buy. When I did quickly discover that I had a lot of things that needed correction, I fixed them right away. I have also spent hours and hours reading the information provided here learning whatever I can to be the best cham owner I can be.

With that said I am hoping I can clear up a few things. I do not stand in front of Peepers cage chasing him all around! I only handle him right now when it is nice enough to bring him outside for a bit, and if he has a vet visit. What I meant by playing chase the cham was that I hold out my hand/finger and gently try to get him to step up on to it. If he turns around, or goes somewhere other than on me I just let him go.

No good deed goes unpunished here on Chameleon Forums it seems.

I am not a mind reader and can only go by your description of events and choice of words.

I just love wasting my time giving a thoughtful response only to be disrespected. I'm sorry your feelings were hurt. If you don't want an honest answer, don't ask.

 

[Sloppysponge]

^^^^^

 

[Brodybreaux25]

Thanks

Kata - I was just like you in March of this year. I was a first time Cham owner with zero experience that already knew it all. Swallow your pride and listen to these people, they are only here to help you.

In the grand scheme of things you putting your Cham through a bit of unnecessary stress is no big deal. In my own ignorance I nearly fed my chams some toxic wild caught locust. The good people on this site saved my chams from my own stupidity.

At first the criticism stings but have no doubt that both you and your Cham are better off for it.

 

[jajeanpierre]

Kata - I was just like you in March of this year. I was a first time Cham owner with zero experience that already knew it all. Swallow your pride and listen to these people, they are only here to help you.

In the grand scheme of things you putting your Cham through a bit of unnecessary stress is no big deal. In my own ignorance I nearly fed my chams some toxic wild caught locust. The good people on this site saved my chams from my own stupidity.

At first the criticism stings but have no doubt that both you and your Cham are better off for it.

Why were the locusts toxic?

Today I spent over an hour sweeping my field looking for wild grasshoppers.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

They were juvenile Lubbers. Have you ever try to build a no kill locust trap?