Take a guess about their specise :)

[Kent67]

You guys seem to be forgetting the OP didn't even know what he had originally stolen. He thought they were globifer. I'd even guess he was trying to take yellow-lip Parson's in the first place.

@Pilotman: 98% of the Parson's in the US were smuggled from Madagascar. Or their parents were.

 

[HSTUDIO]

Firstly, the following serious smell is quite out of my surprise. I truely feel sorry for having aroused you guys arguing here anyway. Basiclly, I just wanted to make some fun and share with you guys about “my” preciouse babies here. Kind of show off, you can say that.
I don’t deny that I did smuggle these two babies home, and I feel a bit guity of having them this way deep down. I do partially agree dinamite’s opinion. If I was not the person who smuggled, even the word of smuggle could make me sick. Smuggle is whensoever a good word of course, it makes me think nothing else than people take animals away from their original habitat in quantity for making personal profit (They mostly sell them to dealers worldwide regardless of nothing about their well beings, how they are going to be next. And the dealers sell them to buyers, the buyers may be true animal lovers, and some of them maybe just some of us.)
I do agree smuggling is never a right move for any reason. Me and my wife, we are truelly reptile lovers, we’ve been keeping reptiles of many specises with us for more than 10 years. We keep learning about how to provide them what they need, and give them better care, just like most reptile lovers do. We do love them so much, they are part of our life aready. I have to say that personal greed won after the ballance of morality vs greed when I was just standing next to them there, which is not rihgt, I know. Still, there are somethings else I want to mention as well. We staied there for 13 days. We were there for gaining first-hand knowledges and taking pictures about chameleons, tortoises, birds,and lemurs. As for chameleons, we have seen more than 50 of more than 10 sorts in the wild, definitly more than 2 C.oshaughnessyis for sure, all of them were in a easy reachable distance; There were dead bodies of chames frogs, and snakes on roads, native boys and girls put chames on branches,and waved at passing cars for selling or changing for candies, native guys keep them as “pets” without providing proper care;The person in charge in Madagascar customs is a good friend of our guide, we could have brought as many as we wanted, and have passed throgh the customs without body check. Even if you don't know the right person there, money is the permit.
Once again, I do feel it’s not right to take them away their hometown this way, and we will surely give them as much care as we could.

 

[eisentrauti]

My thoughts as well. Taking just because you can is not helping anyone. Had they been intended for new captive breeding and propagation by someone with a good record of such then that would be one thing. This was removing viable genetic material and healthy youngsters that could really contribute to future populations just so you could have them. I don't think it's right that these were removed just to be pets.

Well said !

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

It is true that we all like to think of Madagascar as a giant haven for chameleons where no one bothers them and they have the entire island to themselves when in fact that is not always the case.

I still don't think it's right (although that can be said of a lot of things) but if there is a silver lining to this at least you spent time collecting data on their natural habitat and have good intentions. I hope you are doing everything to make these little gems healthy and happy in their new home. Because it would really tick me off if you took them and they died later...

 

[clarkrw3]

Firstly, the following serious smell is quite out of my surprise. I truely feel sorry to arouse you guys argue here anyway. Basiclly, I just wanted to make some fun and share with you guys about “my” preciouse babies here. Kind of show off, you can say that.
I don’t deny that I did smuggle these two babies home, and I feel a bit guity of having them this way deep down. I do partially agree dinamite’s opinion. If I was not the person who smuggled, even the word of smuggle could make me sick. Smuggle is whensoever a good word of course, it makes me think nothing else than people take animals away from their original habitat in quantity for making personal profit (They mostly sell them to dealers worldwide regardless of nothing about their well beings, how they are going to be next. And the dealers sell them to buyers, the buyers may be true animal lovers, and some of them maybe just some of us.)
I do agree smuggling is never a right move for any reason. Me and my wife, we are truelly reptile lovers, we’ve been keeping reptiles of many specises with us for more than 10 years. We keep learning about how to provide them what they need, and give them better care, just like most reptile lovers do. We do love them so much, they are part of our life aready. I have to say that personal greed wins after the ballence of morality vs greed when I was just standing next to them there, which is not rihgt, I know. Still, there are somethings else I want to mention as well. We staied there for 13 days. We were there for gaining first-hand knowledges and taking pictures about chameleons, tortoises, birds,and lemurs. As for chameleons, we have seen more than 50 of more than 10 sorts, definitly more than 2 C.oshaughnessyis for sure; There were dead bodies of chames frogs, and snakes on roads, native boys and girls put chames on branches waving at passing cars for selling or changing for candies, native guys keep them as “pet” without providing proper care.The person in charge in Madagascar customs is a good friend of our guide, we could have brought as many as we wanted, and have passed throgh the customs without body check.
Once again, I do feel it’s not right to take them away their hometown this way, and we will surely give them as much care as we could.

I would like to extend a welcome and thanks for joining and sharing on this forum! It is clear that English isn't your first language and I commend you for coming on here and doing such a great job sharing your photos and being open and honest with us about your experiences. I very much envy your trip and would LOVE to do the same sometime in my life.

Honestly, I just got back from Hawaii and had a permit to take 4 chams home with me. I didn't make use of the permit and didn't find any in the wild to take home (and yes I know they are not native to Hawaii). If I was on a guided trip to Madagascar and my guide told me it was ok to take them and he would make sure it was fine through customs I can't say I wouldn't take some as well. In a third world country if you are given the go ahead from officials i would consider that NOT smuggling. Maybe that's just me. I have seen pictures of how the locals treat them etc. And we all know how long the life expectancy is compare to well taken care of captive animals. I would bring back breeding pairs, but I can't say I would take the moral high ground when give free access and pass through customs.

 

[Hoj]

if free access was givin to pass through customs then this is hardly smuggling, who gets to decide who can and cannot give the right. esp, in a counrty like madagascar. if the customs officals cleared them than i do not see it as smuggling
jmo
hoj

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

It's still smuggling because it is technically illegal. A corrupt official doesn't supercede the law. Just because they weren't stopped doesn't make it legal.

 

[clarkrw3]

It's still smuggling because it is technically illegal. A corrupt official doesn't supercede the law. Just because they weren't stopped doesn't make it legal.

In a first world country I would agree...but in a third world country, things are a lot more gray. At least that is my take, for what that is worth. In a third world country it is much more about who you know and what hand you have greased then a black and white legal matter.

 

[showjet95]

Is it just me or does it seem like east Asia is primarily the cause of much of our natural worlds demise? They troll the oceans for sharks solely for their fins, they hunt down and harpoon endangered species of whales for their meat and say its for "research", they kill dolphins in japan, eat everything one could imagine and say its for medicinal purposes, even if the animal it comes from is critically endanegered, they dont seem to care, and actually want their furniture to come from rare and hard to find hardwoods from rainforests that hold some of the worlds most unique and endangered flora and fauna. Should I go on?...It makes me sick to my stomach. Oh ya, how could I forget, where do almost every single one of these smuggled chameleon species got to? Thailand, or somewhere in Asia. I had to get that off my chest.

 

[eisentrauti]

In a first world country I would agree...but in a third world country, things are a lot more gray. At least that is my take, for what that is worth. In a third world country it is much more about who you know and what hand you have greased then a black and white legal matter.

It's all about money and favours. In the "first" world you need more of them in the third world less.
@showjet: I wont blame anyone for hunting animals because of hunger, but the main problem in Asia is that the animals are less worth than mud. They were housed half death in high numbers under catastrophal circumstances. Snakes and monitors were skinned alive ...

Btw: Many in this forum think that the black market has its focus in Europe, but this is not true. It's Hongkong and Japan.

 

[Synapse]

It's all about money and favours. In the "first" world you need more of them in the third world less.
@showjet: I wont blame anyone for hunting animals because of hunger, but the main problem in Asia is that the animals are less worth than mud. They were housed half death in high numbers under catastrophal circumstances. Snakes and monitors were skinned alive ...

Btw: Many in this forum think that the black market has its focus in Europe, but this is not true. It's Hongkong and Japan.

This is the truth. "Tipping" is part of life in these countries.

If you know the right people and have money, you can get away with pretty much anything.

 

[showjet95]

I'm not saying that because do it for food out of hunger, it's not like they live in poverty and have nothing to it so they hunt and kill dolphins and whales for food lol

 

[davthevieled]

My question and only question... Not taking sides BUT if those who are so against smuggling are keeping their own chameleons, what is the reasoning? At ONE point there had to be one person to do it and start the trend, you are supporting that trend, are you not?

 

[Hoj]

It's still smuggling because it is technically illegal. A corrupt official doesn't supercede the law. Just because they weren't stopped doesn't make it legal.

but yet exceptions are made on many levels, even closed countries do export now and then and its all paper work and money. then it is LEGAL???
my question is who makes the call.
basically they r all corrupt, its all about money,
it really is a GREY area when you involve less developed third world countries.
if i anyone had the cash they could geat Tanzinia opened im sure, then is it currupt? smuggling?
who decides??
just to make things clear i dont advocate for ever removing an animal from the wild, some times i even feel bad keeping my cb guys all caged up,
just dont feel the op should be getting bashed.
just my two cents

 

[showjet95]

He took these animals illegally, and basically smuggled them out of the country knowingly, even worse he took them from a national park knowingly.

 

[Seeco]

people take animals away from their original habitat in quantity for making personal profit (They mostly sell them to dealers worldwide regardless of nothing about their well beings, how they are going to be next. And the dealers sell them to buyers, the buyers may be true animal lovers, and some of them maybe just some of us.)

IWe do love them so much, they are part of our life aready. I have to say that personal greed won after the ballance of morality vs greed when I was just standing next to them there, which is not rihgt, I know.

Very good points. You ARE much different than a profit smuggler.

The freedom to capture "pets" was the most fun and important thing in my childhood and the only reason I appreciate and respect nature now is because I was able to capture it when I wanted.

Your chameleons seem to be growing healthily. Thank you for not being scared off by what I and others said.

 

[okiroo]

Is it just me or does it seem like east Asia is primarily the cause of much of our natural worlds demise? They troll the oceans for sharks solely for their fins, they hunt down and harpoon endangered species of whales for their meat and say its for "research", they kill dolphins in japan, eat everything one could imagine and say its for medicinal purposes, even if the animal it comes from is critically endanegered, they dont seem to care, and actually want their furniture to come from rare and hard to find hardwoods from rainforests that hold some of the worlds most unique and endangered flora and fauna. Should I go on?...It makes me sick to my stomach. Oh ya, how could I forget, where do almost every single one of these smuggled chameleon species got to? Thailand, or somewhere in Asia. I had to get that off my chest.

please do not say things like that. people that live their do that, yes; however, you need to understand thats a few out of 1000s of good people. i grew up in Japan beacuse my dad was a marine(who also used to live in madagascar) i know a thing or 2 and honestly i dont see what wrong with takeing these chams. they probally would have either been eaten or burned down with the rest of that country. thats all those people do, and no not beacuse their bad but beacuse its all they have to feed their familys. no matter what we do this is going to happen. its heart breaking but how many people besides people like us know this is happening? if you want to make a diffrence please do because i'll gladly sign something. i've also been to the JJ market in thailand. nothing like they say it is although i saw a few rare animals is wasnt anything that crazy. though in shure they get them in.


oh and also. they have zoos in japan with dolphines that they take wonderful care of(also whale sharks and turtles ect)

 

[Seeco]

Is it just me or does it seem like east Asia is primarily the cause of much of our natural worlds demise? They troll the oceans for sharks solely for their fins, they hunt down and harpoon endangered species of whales for their meat and say its for "research", they kill dolphins in japan, eat everything one could imagine and say its for medicinal purposes, even if the animal it comes from is critically endanegered, they dont seem to care, and actually want their furniture to come from rare and hard to find hardwoods from rainforests that hold some of the worlds most unique and endangered flora and fauna. Should I go on?...It makes me sick to my stomach. Oh ya, how could I forget, where do almost every single one of these smuggled chameleon species got to? Thailand, or somewhere in Asia. I had to get that off my chest.

Ya I sometimes feel the same way but actually all countries do some pretty insane and bad things. We are all sick and disgusting but the difference is that Asia just has the most people!

On a PER PERSON basis each white person messes up the earth way more than an Asian person.

I think that when we feel this way we are not angry -- we are actually scared! Any thing different than you can be scary but it is especially threatening when it is sucking up more of earth's resources than your country can do even when trying its hardest.

Don't forget who dropped the atom bomb and freaking poisoned and burned the entire country of Vietnam.

 

[davthevieled]

Very good points. You ARE much different than a profit smuggler.

The freedom to capture "pets" was the most fun and important thing in my childhood and the only reason I appreciate and respect nature now is because I was able to capture it when I wanted.

Your chameleons seem to be growing healthily. Thank you for not being scared off by what I and others said.

I'm pretty much going to say I agree. Even if you don't want to say you agree, with purchasing a chameleon or any animal variant you have agreed to animal smuggling at one point. Yes, he took from the world's biggest stock of pets, aka the wild. Did you not do so as a child? When I was a kid, I took crayfish and frogs from the wild and kept them as pets. Someone took the first Veiled from the wild "possibly illegally" and kept it as a pet of his/her own. Regardless of legality, the sense of taking from the wild and putting it into captivity has been around since we, as humans were nomadic people. Let the man do wonderful things with his two new children. Don't ruin the moment, share it with him.

To the OP, welcome to the forums! They truly are such beautiful little ones and will grow up and be just as beautiful in the end! Hopefully the negativity of those will not scare you from posting any further, as for I would love to see how they grow up!

 

[heartben]

They look amazing! It seems like you're doing a fine job with them. It was cool you got the temp/humidity and uv readings while you were there.

I don't really have much of an opinion on the smuggling of them... I would have done the same thing if I knew I could care for them if I were in that situation... Does that make me a bad person? I dont know.

At this point it doesn't matter if he was in the wrong, he has them now...at least he is willing to share pictures and his experience with us.