Take a guess about their specise :)

[Motherlode Chameleon]

I just read this thread and by the looks of it, it seems that these animals were apparently smuggled from Madagascar. I may be wrong but noticing how the OP has denied to really answer the question many have been asking as to how he got them, it is obvious in my opinion that they were indeed smuggled out of their native habitat.
As such I do feel the obligation to speak up against this, and the fact that perhaps by admiring this individual for having them is wrong in my opinion. I really enjoy admiring pictures of rare specimens, however, I reject the fact the individuals like this are illegally taking from a world heritage, like Motherlode mentioned, just so that they can latter show off and gain the admiration of others for having rare species.
Nothing personal here, and as I said I do enjoy the pics but would have really prefer that these animals stayed where they belong, or if that you posses them to at least have acquired them legally. It is such a sad thing to see species like this illegally been taken from their natural environment without thinking the harm done to the hobby and nature overall. Just my two cents on this.

I concur with you smuggling is not the answer and I hate to think people that go on eco tourist trips to Madagascar should be even tempted. In the long run smuggling just harms the conservation of these species in the wild. Chameleons are best seen in the wild, and until CITES and others involved with conserving wild lands in Madagascar can justify exporting some of these species they should stay in Madagascar. Even if species such as Calumma oshaughnessyi is somewhat protected by Ranomafana National Park.

 

[eisentrauti]

Lucky you that you passed the controls at the airport. I've heard the authorities in Maddy are very strict in such cases.

dinamite: Well, I can understand your post, but to be honest, do you know what the difference between a smuggled and a legal animal is ? A piece of paper.
Madagascar does nearly everything possible to destroy their nature, they even rent huge parts of their land to companies from Asia for farming purposes !
If the smuggled animal ends in good hands (seems to be the fact here) I dont see the moral problem. Somebody who traveled to this country knows best how they live and the chances are really high that such a person can keep those animals well.

 

[lumbasammler]

I´d really love to see some pics of their enclosures.

 

[JackP308]

awesome healthy looking animals.

 

[Kent67]

If the smuggled animal ends in good hands (seems to be the fact here) I dont see the moral problem.

Theft is theft. So, if someone thinks they can take care of your animals better than you and they come and steal them from your house, you would be ok with that, too, right? Of course you would.

 

[chameleonneeds]

I dont see where the OP denied or avoided the question of how he aquired them. He himself said he took them from the wild out of honesty.

I agree with Ben about this...its not like he took hundreds or thousands...these things happen but I dont think 2 will destroy the population.
What bothers me is the fail of a smuggling plan that was linked from Madagascar to South Africa and then the final route Europe...the CRATES of animals (including: small mammals, geckos, frogs, snakes chameleons) were ditched in the OR Tambo airport, the way the authorities found out was due to a terrible smell in the airport which was coming from the crates where some animals died already. That is where smuggling gets rough.

Motherlode isnt your Parsons smuggled aswell?

 

[JackP308]

Comparing someone that smuggled 2 chameleons on a vacation by themselves to someone coming to your house and stealing your chameleons because they can take better care of them. That's funny stuff right there.

 

[lumbasammler]

This was not supposed to become a discussion about smuggling, i guess.
I don´t think it´s of any use for anybody to judge him, even though i´m against smuggling in gerneral.
That just isn´t our business.
Probably the starter will not post anything more, which would be understandable.
@HSTUDIO: would be pretty nice if you´d write me a pm if you don´t want to post anymore, which would be understandable.
I really want to know how you keep those little guys and see some pictures of it.

 

[Kent67]

Really? What's the difference between stealing from a person vs stealing from a country?

 

[dinamite]

I agree with Ben about this...its not like he took hundreds or thousands...these things happen but I dont think 2 will destroy the population.

I think this is the type of mentality that has caused so much devastation to our natural resources. Really just taking two is ok? how about if everyone that went Madagascar took an animal from there??? where the even be any left???the fact that he can take care of them is good but that indeed does not make it right.

 

[JackP308]

Really? What's the difference between stealing from a person vs stealing from a country?

To me its morally different that's my opinion and I feel others would feel the same. Maybe not Madagascar and the Law.

The circumstance not stealing in general. I don't condone stealing from anything from anyone. I personally don't like thieves at all.

 

[dinamite]

Lucky you that you passed the controls at the airport. I've heard the authorities in Maddy are very strict in such cases.

dinamite: Well, I can understand your post, but to be honest, do you know what the difference between a smuggled and a legal animal is ? A piece of paper.
Madagascar does nearly everything possible to destroy their nature, they even rent huge parts of their land to companies from Asia for farming purposes !
If the smuggled animal ends in good hands (seems to be the fact here) I dont see the moral problem. Somebody who traveled to this country knows best how they live and the chances are really high that such a person can keep those animals well.

I think you're contradicting yourself here, first you say authorities are strict and then you say they're not doing anything to protect Maddy.

Even if authorities do nothing to protect the wildlife in the island then shouldn't ALL of us do something about it???? the LEAST we can do is not go in there and deteriorate it even more.

The fact that he has kept them alive is a good thing overall. but what if they had not survive the trip to his house?? how would people have reacted?? think about those cases in which animals have not made it and that's why we don't see them posted here.

Overall I wish that he makes the best of it, and wish him luck so that he can grow them up.

 

[JackP308]

.................so how about them chameleons

 

[dinamite]

What is the difference. What does make it right. When some corrupt govt gives you an A ok? seriously geckos and everything else are ripped out these trees and neglected in alarming rates. Thats devastating.Not this tourist or every tourist going that takes one or 2. Im not saying its right but give the OP a break.

Why don't you look up why CITES was created?? I think it was developed for some reason, whether it can do more or not, is another topic. And like I said it's nothing personal against the OP, I admire the pics but would have rather see them be taken at the wild than to for them to be SMUGGLED. Unfortunately my friend, I will speak my mind when I think something is wrong and you're seeing this as an attack to the OP, when all I'm doing is actually voicing my opinion on something I'm against.

 

[chameleonneeds]

Dinamite do you own any chameleons?

Most people support this smuggling as most people on this forum if had the money, would buy a parsons chameleon.

 

[Olimpia]

As a biologist I certainly don't support smuggling.
It does nothing to aid the populations in the wild, and usually arrive at their destinations looking like crap, if they survive at all. What if these guys hadn't made it, or hadn't acclimated properly? What then? We're out two more individuals of a beautiful species that might not have a large population size to begin with.

This "it's just 2 animals" mentality is what gets wild animals in trouble.

These guys are beautiful, and I certainly wouldn't mind getting one or two by any means, but I wouldn't pluck them out of the wild. I don't know how many others are doing this and in what state the wild population is. I'd be doing more harm than good. Besides, NONE of the individuals that we breed in captivity (especially now these because they're illegal) will ever go back to repopulate the jungles.

 

[Seeco]

Actually the real crime here is that, judging by the animal's identical size and proximity in the photo with the thermometer, these animals are siblings and for all we know, the same sex!

This theft was done solely on a whim. These animals are just pointless "pets". If it was part of a breeding project I would be ok with it, but I doubt any long term results will come out of these two sad little orphans.

 

[eisentrauti]

I think you're contradicting yourself here, first you say authorities are strict and then you say they're not doing anything to protect Maddy.

Even if authorities do nothing to protect the wildlife in the island then shouldn't ALL of us do something about it???? the LEAST we can do is not go in there and deteriorate it even more.

The fact that he has kept them alive is a good thing overall. but what if they had not survive the trip to his house?? how would people have reacted?? think about those cases in which animals have not made it and that's why we don't see them posted here.

Overall I wish that he makes the best of it, and wish him luck so that he can grow them up.

The only strict thing in Madagascar are the controls at the airport. You know why ? Because finding a smuggler is the easy $ cause nobody wants to stay in their jails.
Did you ever travel to Madagascar ? Or did you ever talked with someone who knows how the situation is there ? No ?
Every person I talked with says the same: This country has no future, beside the official parks every piece of forest is burned down or cut into pieces for fine and expensive furniture.
If you have moral problems with WC animals, stay away from the hobby chameleons. Cause without WC animals we all would have the choice between keeping mixed pardalis variations and calyptratus.

 

[Pilotman800]

If its that easy to smuggle those, I wonder how many Parsons get smuggled into the US.

(Not saying i'd ever do it)

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

Actually the real crime here is that, judging by the animal's identical size and proximity in the photo with the thermometer, these animals are siblings and for all we know, the same sex!

This theft was done solely on a whim. These animals are just pointless "pets". If it was part of a breeding project I would be ok with it, but I doubt any long term results will come out of these two sad little orphans.

My thoughts as well. Taking just because you can is not helping anyone. Had they been intended for new captive breeding and propagation by someone with a good record of such then that would be one thing. This was removing viable genetic material and healthy youngsters that could really contribute to future populations just so you could have them. I don't think it's right that these were removed just to be pets.