supplementing retinyl palmitate(vitamin A) ?

[Jamie]

The "human supplements are fish oil

-Brad

So, you are saying that fish oil and vitamin A acetate are one in the same?

Vitamin A that is derived from Fish Oil is in the form of Vitamin A Palmitate.

There is a difference between synthetic vit A and that obtained from natural sources.

Regardless, my point has not changed. I still prefer to offer natural forms of vitamin A as opposed to possibly overdosing by using a highly concentrated form.

 

[mika]

So, you are saying that fish oil and vitamin A acetate are one in the same?

Vitamin A that is derived from Fish Oil is in the form of Vitamin A Palmitate.

There is a difference between synthetic vit A and that obtained from natural sources.

Regardless, my point has not changed. I still prefer to offer natural forms of vitamin A as opposed to possibly overdosing by using a highly concentrated form.

Here's a good read:

You need to download it in order to read it.

http://www.badongo.com/file/2344836

 

[Jamie]

Here's a good read:

You need to download it in order to read it.

http://www.badongo.com/file/2344836

Yes, I read that shortly after it came out in '03... It is, in part, what brought me to my conclusions.

 

[mika]

Yes, I read that shortly after it came out in '03... It is, in part, what brought me to my conclusions.

I'm not trying to change your mind but I don't understand how you got to your conclusion. This article suggests using preformed Vit A (human supplements).

In order to get the nutrients that chams eat in the wild, you have would to have tons of different insects to feed them not just crickets.

 

[mika]

It says USEFUL Vit A activity can be obtained by ingestion of either provitamin A or the various metabolites of RETINOL.

 

[mika]

And I'm assuming your feeding your chams crickets or roaches (?) because I don't know what other insect would eat chicken, fish oil, scrambled eggs etc

If you're only doing it once a month, how many crickets can that cham eat the whole day? 4-6 crix?

How much Vit A is he getting once a month?

 

[mika]

In a paragraph in this article it also states that Dr. Ferguson did a study on panthers since 1988:

"The main abnormalities have been symptoms of hypovitaminosis in captive born individuals whose diets did not include sufficient Preformed Vitamin A (retinol or retinyl esters)"

It also states that a former editor of CIN disseminated two poorly researched articles in the early 90's suggesting that preformed Vit A should not be administered to chameleons.

Therefore to make it short, people got scared, they stopped using preformed Vit A supplements in their chams diets, there were many cases of Vit A deficiencies because people started using the "safer" method which is Beta Carotene.

 

[Jamie]

Wow... I sure didn't mean to offend you....

It says USEFUL Vit A activity can be obtained by ingestion of either provitamin A or the various metabolites of RETINOL.

It has not been proven that chams can convert provitamin A (carotenoids that serve as precursors of retinol) to vitamin A.

To quote Ferguson in this article: """""Whether and under what conditions panther chameleons can "do the vertebrate thing" and convert carotenoids to useable vitamin A in their gut needs to be investigated experimentally."""""


I never said chams don't need preformed vitamin A as I know they do, I just choose to supply it via natural means as opposed to synthetic forms.

All I am saying is preformed Vitamin A does not HAVE to come via human supplements...

 

[mika]

Wow... I sure didn't mean to offend you....

No offense taken at all. I'm here to learn.

It has not been proven that chams can convert provitamin A (carotenoids that serve as precursors of retinol) to vitamin A.

To quote Ferguson in this article: """""Whether and under what conditions panther chameleons can "do the vertebrate thing" and convert carotenoids to useable vitamin A in their gut needs to be investigated experimentally."""""

He's not referring to Retinyl Palmitate or human supplements here. He's talking about beta carotene.

In that same paragraph he said "These symptoms could be relieved with oral dosages of over the counter vitamin A supplements (probably retinyl palmitate) suspended in vegetable oil.

Reference: http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/980793489.html

** Provitamin A carotenoids such as beta-carotene are generally considered safe because they are not traditionally associated with specific adverse health effects. The conversion of provitamin A carotenoids from plant foods to vitamin A slows down when body has adequate stores of Vitamin A, so the levels are naturally limited. A high intake of provitamin A carotenoids (from food sources) can turn your skin yellow, but this is not considered dangerous to health.

I never said chams don't need preformed vitamin A as I know they do, I just choose to supply it via natural means as opposed to synthetic forms.

Vitamin A can be lost from foods during preparation, cooking, or storage.

In my opinion, you would need a ton of research to provide a natural source of Vit A because the chicken does not only contain Vit A it also contains the following:

100 grams of Chicken, broilers or fryers, breast, meat only, cooked, roasted

Protein & Amino Acids

Amounts Per Selected Serving %DV
Protein31.0g 62%
Tryptophan 362mg
Threonine 1310mg
Isoleucine 1638mg
Leucine 2328mg
Lysine 2635mg
Methionine 859mg Cystine397mg Phenylalanine1231mg Tyrosine1047mg Valine1539mg Arginine1871mg Histidine963mg Alanine1692mg Aspartic acid2764mg Glutamic acid4646mg Glycine1524mg Proline1275mg Serine1067mg Hydroxyproline~

Vitamins
Amounts Per Selected Serving%DVVitamin A21.0IU0% Retinol6.0mcg Retinol Activity Equivalent6.0mcg Alpha Carotene0.0mcg Beta Carotene0.0mcg Beta Cryptoxanthin0.0mcg Lycopene0.0mcg Lutein+Zeaxanthin0.0mcg Vitamin C0.0mg0%Vitamin D~ ~Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol)0.3mg1% Beta Tocopherol~ Gamma Tocopherol~ Delta Tocopherol~ Vitamin K0.3mcg0%Thiamin0.1mg5%Riboflavin0.1mg7%Niacin13.7mg69%Vitamin B60.6mg30%Folate4.0mcg1% Food Folate4.0mcg Folic Acid0.0mcg Dietary Folate Equivalents4.0mcg Vitamin B120.3mcg6%Pantothenic Acid1.0mg10%Choline85.3mg Betaine6.2mg

Minerals
Amounts Per Selected Serving%DVCalcium15.0mg1%Iron1.0mg6%Magnesium29.0mg7%Phosphorus228mg23%Potassium256mg7%Sodium74.0mg3%Zinc1.0mg7%Copper0.0mg2%Manganese0.0mg1%Selenium27.6mcg39%Fluoride~
Sterols
Amounts Per Selected Serving%DVCholesterol85.0mg28%Phytosterols~ Campesterol~ Stigmasterol~ Beta-sitosterol~
Other
Amounts Per Selected Serving%DVAlcohol0

PLUS - plus you would need to still give him a wide assortment of insects.. snails, arachnids, butterflies.. etc..

All I am saying is preformed Vitamin A does not HAVE to come via human supplements...

I agree it doesn't but like the article said "housing & caring for a WIDE variety of insects requires knowledge and is expensive and time consuming" and doing it the natural way requires research

 

[mika]

% DV

100 grams of chicken:

6% Iron, 1% Calcium, 1 gram or 5% of Saturated Fat (the heart clogging bad fats), 85 mg/28% cholesterol, 74 mg/3% Sodium and 31 grams of protein.

 

[mika]

In essence, 100 grams of chicken has 21.0 IU of Vit A

This is if the cham can get all 100 grams of chicken.

 

[Scott85]

How much IU does the powder contain?

In my opinion it would be much more difficult to control the amount given.
What else is in the powder?
How much is preformed Vitamin A?

-Brad

I only use this powder once every two weeks on about 3-4 crix, inplace of the Calcium for that day. The powder comes in a bottle (100g), but it is equivalent in size to a small tub of Rep-cal (116g). The analysis printed on the label per 100g is as follows:

Calcium (max) 38.5%
Calcium (min) 34.5%
Vitamin A 36,000 IU
Vitamin D3 33,600 IU
Vitamin C 235 mg

The D3 concentration is actually lower than Rep-cal Calcium with D3. When converted from a kilo it has 40,000 IU of D3 per 100g. The amount of VitC is slightly higher than that of Herptivite, 220mg per 100g of powder.

This was posted by Kinyonga on a previous thread a month ago.
Lack of vitamin A can result in difficulty shedding.
http://www.all-creatures.com/site/view/79378_Chameleons.pml;jsessionid=cjxgv1l7s6n

I have noticed on one occasion a diffcult shed that was eased only two days after the powder was given. I dunno if it was coincidence or what. But that shed had started a week and two days prior to the VitA dust being given.

 

[Jamie]

I started a few responses earlier, but when you edited your posts, mine seemed a little "off in left field", so I will try again...

It says USEFUL Vit A activity can be obtained by ingestion of either provitamin A or the various metabolites of RETINOL.

It has not been proven that chams can convert provitamin A (carotenoids that serve as precursors of retinol) to vitamin A.

To quote Ferguson in this article: """""Whether and under what conditions panther chameleons can "do the vertebrate thing" and convert carotenoids to useable vitamin A in their gut needs to be investigated experimentally."""""

He's not referring to Retinyl Palmitate or human supplements here. He's talking about beta carotene.

I know, that is what I said.

In that same paragraph he said "These symptoms could be relieved with oral dosages of over the counter vitamin A supplements (probably retinyl palmitate) suspended in vegetable oil.

Reference: http://healthlink.mcw.edu/article/980793489.html

Retinyl palmitate is the form derived from fish oil

** Provitamin A carotenoids such as beta-carotene are generally considered safe because they are not traditionally associated with specific adverse health effects. The conversion of provitamin A carotenoids from plant foods to vitamin A slows down when body has adequate stores of Vitamin A, so the levels are naturally limited. A high intake of provitamin A carotenoids (from food sources) can turn your skin yellow, but this is not considered dangerous to health.




Vitamin A can be lost from foods during preparation, cooking, or storage.

In my opinion, you would need a ton of research to provide a natural source of Vit A

I agree. I am not looking for 1 single source, but rather a “combined effort” from as many natural sources as possible.

because the chicken does not only contain Vit A it also contains the following:

100 grams of Chicken, broilers or fryers, breast, meat only, cooked, roasted

Protein & Amino Acids

Amounts Per Selected Serving %DV
Protein31.0g 62%
Tryptophan 362mg
Threonine 1310mg
Isoleucine 1638mg
Leucine 2328mg
Lysine 2635mg
Methionine 859mg Cystine397mg Phenylalanine1231mg Tyrosine1047mg Valine1539mg Arginine1871mg Histidine963mg Alanine1692mg Aspartic acid2764mg Glutamic acid4646mg Glycine1524mg Proline1275mg Serine1067mg Hydroxyproline~

Vitamins
Amounts Per Selected Serving%DVVitamin A21.0IU0% Retinol6.0mcg Retinol Activity Equivalent6.0mcg Alpha Carotene0.0mcg Beta Carotene0.0mcg Beta Cryptoxanthin0.0mcg Lycopene0.0mcg Lutein+Zeaxanthin0.0mcg Vitamin C0.0mg0%Vitamin D~ ~Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol)0.3mg1% Beta Tocopherol~ Gamma Tocopherol~ Delta Tocopherol~ Vitamin K0.3mcg0%Thiamin0.1mg5%Riboflavin0.1mg7%Niacin13.7mg69%Vitamin B60.6mg30%Folate4.0mcg1% Food Folate4.0mcg Folic Acid0.0mcg Dietary Folate Equivalents4.0mcg Vitamin B120.3mcg6%Pantothenic Acid1.0mg10%Choline85.3mg Betaine6.2mg

Minerals
Amounts Per Selected Serving%DVCalcium15.0mg1%Iron1.0mg6%Magnesium29.0mg7%Phosphorus228mg23%Potassium256mg7%Sodium74.0mg3%Zinc1.0mg7%Copper0.0mg2%Manganese0.0mg1%Selenium27.6mcg39%Fluoride~
Sterols
Amounts Per Selected Serving%DVCholesterol85.0mg28%Phytosterols~ Campesterol~ Stigmasterol~ Beta-sitosterol~
Other
Amounts Per Selected Serving%DVAlcohol0

PLUS - plus you would need to still give him a wide assortment of insects.. snails, arachnids, butterflies.. etc..

Thanks! With all that stuff, I will never touch chicken again! No, really- I should have clarified in my first post and I apologize. I don’t usually use white chicken for gutloading, I prefer to use the liver, though I don’t always have it available and will use dark meat instead (I know it’s not as good). I am curious if you will site your source for your values- assuming you have a source and didn’t just pull all that out of your head LOL..?
I would be curious exactly what % is held by: Chicken Liver (? All organ meat?), dark chicken meat, scrambled eggs, cream cheese and plain yogurt... for starters

I had kept chameleons for quite a while when this article became public knowledge. I hadn’t been aware of any past problems in my collection, but thought it best to be proactive and started adding items like the ones I mentioned above to my gutload regimen. I have continued to do so and have not seen a difference in my chams overall health. So, am I wasting my time, or are the benefits/con’s yet to be seen? Only time will tell, but one thing is apparent and that is that I have not had any affected by Hypervitaminosis A.



I am tired and don’t have the energy to have a pissing match with you, I don’t have the concrete evidence you are demanding, I only posted my thoughts... and now wish I had kept them to myself.. I truly hope my additions have not confused an already complicated (and I may add “unrefined”) topic.

 

[mika]

I am tired and don’t have the energy to have a pissing match with you, I don’t have the concrete evidence you are demanding, I only posted my thoughts... and now wish I had kept them to myself.. I truly hope my additions have not confused an already complicated (and I may add “unrefined”) topic.

Sorry if I sounded demanding. I didn't mean to come out that way. I hope you don't take it the wrong way.

I'm trying to learn from this. People tell me to supplement, some people don't. I want to do what's right so I want facts, that's all.

 

[Dave Weldon]

Hi Dave,

At what age should I start administrating vitamin A? Would it be fine for chameleons under 2 months? Brian

Howdy Brian,

Sorry for the delay in responding. I seemed to have accidentally missed this thread over the last few days . Not knowing anything about vitamin A and chameleons until my first was probably at least a year old (4 yrs-old now), I didn't use any until later in his life. If I had it all to do over again, I suppose I might have given him a super-tiny dose starting somewhere in the 0-6 month region. Even after reading about vitamin A and chameleons for years, it still leaves me more in a quandary than most any other vitamin issue. My quandary is not as much based on facts as it is on emotions . There is pretty good evidence that adequate levels of vitamin A added to their diet is a good thing. Do we have accurate controls over insuring that we are giving "adequate" levels? Probably not. So I cross my fingers and give small amounts once in a while. This is out of the comfort zone for me since I am an ARPA (anal-retentive painful analytic) . I just figure that giving a tiny amount is less likely to be overdosing him and more likely to be keeping him from being seriously under-dosed leading to hypovitaminosis A. Someday I may be writing that my chameleon died of liver failure but I hope not. I’ve been giving it to the Panther and Veiled that I have right now for a few years (I think it’s been that long?) and the best that I can say is that I haven’t made things worse as far as I can tell. Who knows if it has benefited them or not? Did they really need it or did they get what they needed from their feeder diet? At least I don’t think I’ve made anything worse (yet). Gotta head-out to work!