substrate in reptarium?

[Mike Fisher]

Of course there is a direct correlation between your plant staying alive and your Cham doing well.

Yes, obvious right?
And yet I'm surprised how many people do not make this connection, so after they kill a few plants, their solution is to use fake ones. Or they use fake ones from the start and have no "barometer" to judge. Live plants are like the "canary in the coal mine". They can alert you before you know there is a problem.

 

[Chameleopatrick]

I lost my very first veiled to perlite impaction caused by a potted plant I got from the nursery. Vet did a necropsy. Ever since, I have never bought a store bought plant. I get them from the forest or propagate them myself. Haven't lost one to impaction since.


Ironically, I do incubate eggs on perlite rather than vermiculite.

But the store bought plant or forest plant isn't the issue. It's the store bought soil which contained perlite that you claim was the issue, right?

It just sounded like because you gather your plants from the forest that therefore no more issues. You just use soil without perlite now. At least thats what I think you meant. Maybe I'm confused.

 

[Mike Fisher]

But the store bought plant or forest plant isn't the issue. It's the store bought soil which contained perlite that you claim was the issue, right?

It just sounded like because you gather your plants from the forest that therefore no more issues. You just use soil without perlite now. At least thats what I think you meant. Maybe I'm confused.

Yes, you are right. Because forest plants don't contain perlite, and my cages only use sand/peat moss mix, there is no chance that there is perlite anywhere in the enclosure.

 

[Oliviabryant]

Yes, obvious right?
And yet I'm surprised how many people do not make this connection, so after they kill a few plants, their solution is to use fake ones. Or they use fake ones from the start and have no "barometer" to judge. Live plants are like the "canary in the coal mine". They can alert you before you know there is a problem.

Yeah common sense isn't as common as I hope for..
I think some people do not grasp that if your chameleon need a specific type of care.. Then all livings things in your care more than likely need a similar structure. The only fake thing I feel is ok would be the vines. Thin foliage really bugs me especially when half of it is fake.

 

[Oliviabryant]

And to the OP- You can keep a rather decent enclosure and then go all out on a free range which your Cham may enjoy more

 

[Olimpia]

A big reason I couldn't stand any gecko forums was the topic of substrate use. I still, several years later, have all my geckos (right now just African fat-taileds) in a fully planted tank with organic soil, sand, or some combination of the two. And still, if I share a photo of my tank on the Repticon page on FB, for example, the first 17 comments are "oh no, substrate!" And I just don't get it lol. People forget animals come from places that have an abundance of substrate and debris and that hasn't stopped them from getting this far, thousands or millions of years later.

Obviously you have to be smart. Don't have wood chips or a floor lined in pebbles, those are never going to pass though a GI tract. But something that is small, particulate, and contains no fertilizers/pesticides/other poisons it something a normal, well-hydrated animal can easily pass.

I've had several vets confirm this, and they agree that a vast majority of impaction cases (even with sand or soil) stem from poor husbandry in general. They say that any time they have an impaction case it's from an animal that doesn't have access to enough water, the temperatures/cage are all wrong, and it's in poor condition to start with. Not all, obviously, but almost.

 

[Mike Fisher]

A big reason I couldn't stand any gecko forums was the topic of substrate use. I still, several years later, have all my geckos (right now just African fat-taileds) in a fully planted tank with organic soil, sand, or some combination of the two. And still, if I share a photo of my tank on the Repticon page on FB, for example, the first 17 comments are "oh no, substrate!"

I've been through the same frustrating situation. Educating people of the benefits of a fully planted enclosure was like banging my head against a wall. I closed my cage company and went back under the radar.

I originally modeled my husbandry based on successful methods in Europe. They had more experience keeping montane chameleons than USA keepers.

 

[juice28]

Don't let the secret out.

SHHHHH...dont tell noooooo body LOL

Yes, obvious right?
And yet I'm surprised how many people do not make this connection, so after they kill a few plants, their solution is to use fake ones. Or they use fake ones from the start and have no "barometer" to judge. Live plants are like the "canary in the coal mine". They can alert you before you know there is a problem.

i agree, its not the same but in SW tanks, there are many factors that let you know theres a issue before fish and coral start dying off

Yes, mine have weep/drain holes in the tubs, but not in the bottom, or the soil will wash out. About 1/4" up on the back of the tubs. I've tailored my misting cycles to never cause enough water to cause it to need to drain. The drains are only there as a safety feature. If I had to rely on the drains every day, I'd be watering too much, drowning my plants and putting my chameleons at risk for respiratory infection.

I've discovered a direct correlation to the health of my plants to the health of my chameleons. Keep your plants healthy and you have a better chance of keeping your chameleons healthy. If you have to regularly replace your chameleons plants because they are dying, that's not a good sign.

I've learned to be as much as a plant keeper as a chameleon keeper because you need both to be successful with montane species.

Yeah common sense isn't as common as I hope for..
I think some people do not grasp that if your chameleon need a specific type of care.. Then all livings things in your care more than likely need a similar structure. The only fake thing I feel is ok would be the vines. Thin foliage really bugs me especially when half of it is fake.

thats awesome.. ive never really been into pants so honestly im earning more about taking care of plants than anything which all increases general overall cham husbandry knowledge as well

A big reason I couldn't stand any gecko forums was the topic of substrate use. I still, several years later, have all my geckos (right now just African fat-taileds) in a fully planted tank with organic soil, sand, or some combination of the two. And still, if I share a photo of my tank on the Repticon page on FB, for example, the first 17 comments are "oh no, substrate!" And I just don't get it lol. People forget animals come from places that have an abundance of substrate and debris and that hasn't stopped them from getting this far, thousands or millions of years later.

Obviously you have to be smart. Don't have wood chips or a floor lined in pebbles, those are never going to pass though a GI tract. But something that is small, particulate, and contains no fertilizers/pesticides/other poisons it something a normal, well-hydrated animal can easily pass.

I've had several vets confirm this, and they agree that a vast majority of impaction cases (even with sand or soil) stem from poor husbandry in general. They say that any time they have an impaction case it's from an animal that doesn't have access to enough water, the temperatures/cage are all wrong, and it's in poor condition to start with. Not all, obviously, but almost.

ive read that and had vets say the same thing as well that a healthy animal will have no issues passing a little dirt or a piece of a dead leaf etc...dealing with leopard geckos and bearded dragon owners and hearing you should never keep them on a sandy/rocky substrate and id ask them well..where do they come from in nature? its not the forest or the dense jungle lol but to each is own they feel more comfy with a mat..

 

[fuzzhc]

The only reason I don't use substrate in my chameleon cages (besides the laying bins) is because it's a huge hassle with all the water and keeping it in a screen cage. But all my other reptiles have always had fully planted, soil and all, terrariums. Impaction is a risk, but a small one in my honest opinion. I've had more impaction problems with my dog swallowing toys (3 times) than with reptiles having access to sand or soil (none.)

Im in no way an expert but I know with monitors there is pretty much no risk of impaction if they are properly supported. I even had my bosc swallow a stone half the size of his head and pass it the next day. Im curious if this could possibly apply to all reptiles including chams? Just a thought lol

Edit: posted this before reading the full thread

 

[vgaines]

I really like the idea of a planted enclosure for both my veiled and crested gecko. I have been seriously thinking about trying it out in my crested geckos cage first just to see how I do. He has always had reptile soil in the bottom of his enclosure. I have had him for over three years with no health issues. Just the other day I noticed pin head crickets in there. I have often thought the same thing about how they have "bedding" in their natural habitat so why can't they have it in captivity. As long as you are careful with what type of soil and plants you use why not....Just my thoughts...

 

[fuzzhc]

You could always look into a bio active planted substrate for your gecko, ive heard of people using it with their leopard geckos. I use it for my bosc and it works wonders, no foul smells, feces virtually disappears over night and you get to see them act more 'natural' i.e. On the constant hunt for food.
Im not sure if it would work for chams though having a constant supply of roaches, arthropods etc in the dirt could possibly lead to impaction if their tongues are always picking up soil/sand mix and dead leaves along with the food hmm.

 

[Oliviabryant]

A big reason I couldn't stand any gecko forums was the topic of substrate use. I still, several years later, have all my geckos (right now just African fat-taileds) in a fully planted tank with organic soil, sand, or some combination of the two. And still, if I share a photo of my tank on the Repticon page on FB, for example, the first 17 comments are "oh no, substrate!" And I just don't get it lol. People forget animals come from places that have an abundance of substrate and debris and that hasn't stopped them from getting this far, thousands or millions of years later.

Obviously you have to be smart. Don't have wood chips or a floor lined in pebbles, those are never going to pass though a GI tract. But something that is small, particulate, and contains no fertilizers/pesticides/other poisons it something a normal, well-hydrated animal can easily pass.

I've had several vets confirm this, and they agree that a vast majority of impaction cases (even with sand or soil) stem from poor husbandry in general. They say that any time they have an impaction case it's from an animal that doesn't have access to enough water, the temperatures/cage are all wrong, and it's in poor condition to start with. Not all, obviously, but almost.

It don't really see how substrate would affect a gecko, a lot of people seem to use the rephashy gecko diet and stick it in a cup. Which obviously means they aren't subjecting their gecko to substrate ingestion.

I generally say "don't do it" to new people because they don't grasp that it shouldn't be bark. It should be a certain type of soil or sand. When they have become more experienced and have ACTUALLY put effort into doing their research they can ultimately decide what's best for their Cham, no one is tying their hands.

 

[Olimpia]

It don't really see how substrate would affect a gecko, a lot of people seem to use the rephashy gecko diet and stick it in a cup. Which obviously means they aren't subjecting their gecko to substrate ingestion.

I generally say "don't do it" to new people because they don't grasp that it shouldn't be bark. It should be a certain type of soil or sand. When they have become more experienced and have ACTUALLY put effort into doing their research they can ultimately decide what's best for their Cham, no one is tying their hands.

Well, crested geckos and the others that eat CGD are just a handful of all the gecko species in the world. My AFTs hunt down and catch their own crickets, worms, and roaches, as did my leopards, Standing's, and electric blue geckos. But I still haven't had any problems with my terrestrial or arboreal geckos hunting their own food among plants and substrate. But for people in leopard gecko forums, in particular, are hugely paranoid about using substrate for reasons I cannot understand. These geckos are so much more engaged when they can do what they do (DIG!) and burrow their own hides wherever they want.

I still cringe when I look at a photo of a gecko in a 10 gal tank with paper towels on the floor and all the caves are made out of tupperware containers.

 

[juice28]

I really like the idea of a planted enclosure for both my veiled and crested gecko. I have been seriously thinking about trying it out in my crested geckos cage first just to see how I do. He has always had reptile soil in the bottom of his enclosure. I have had him for over three years with no health issues. Just the other day I noticed pin head crickets in there. I have often thought the same thing about how they have "bedding" in their natural habitat so why can't they have it in captivity. As long as you are careful with what type of soil and plants you use why not....Just my thoughts...

a friend of mine with a reptile shop has a planted tank for his cresties.. its off the chain i must say.. and if youve been keep in them in some sort of "dirt" material now.. adding plants shouldnt be an issue.. just more stuff to crawl on and around.. just my opinion

 

[Yak]

Not that I'm a master at doing chameleon set ups but here is the current state of my reptarium. I'm getting ready to build a drainage system for it to sit on. Also the top that holds the light was built by my boyfriend pretty nifty

Olivia, whats up with that light laying low at the bottom?

 

[Solid Snake]

Ive kept chameleons in fully planted enclosures, outdoors.

I didnt have any impaction issues, but then again they werent out there long term, maybe 6-8 months?

https://www.chameleonforums.com/experimental-enlcosures-pt-1-a-81894/