Stressed Panther Troubleshooting

[Austin.Hopson]

My panther showing his spots pretty much all of the time which I’ve heard is a sign of stress. I’ve been trying to slowly change things about his enclosure to try to find what is stressing him out.

He is right about a year old right now, and is just finishing a shed (which I thought might be a source of stress) in a 2x2x4 ft enclosure. About a week ago I moved his enclosure to a different part of the room because I thought that the light coming in around the blinds at night was stressing him out.

About a month ago I noticed he had some edema forming on the underside of his neck, between his front legs and had just started to show the at the top behind his cask. I researched and found that the problem was likely receiving too much vitamin A and D3 and not being able to metabolize it so since then he has only been receiving vitamin C without D3. At that time I also replaced both his UVB and basking light (Basking temp reaches about 85 by the early afternoon). Temp taken with temp gun.

He eats every other day, 10-15 crickets lightly dusted with the vitamin C without D3, sometimes he eats Dubia roaches and occasionally has a hornworm or two.

Lights are on a 12 hour cycle, automatic misting system at night but I also spray down the enclosure before I go to sleep every night. Humidity reaches +90% every night and drops to about 40% during the day.
In the pictures the dome that is off is a plant grow light that is usually on but has been off the past few days.

All live plants: umbrella tree, pothos, and dracaena, plenty of horizontal branches but he spends all of hot time at the top 3rd of the enclosure.

He is rarely handled but is very trusting of me when I put my hand out for him to walk on to. He is in a room that is pretty much only used for him and the dog never goes into.

Picture description: pic 1-2 enclosure, pic 3-4 Cham, pic 5 supplements, pic 6 old location of enclosure.

He is especially flared up in these photos because he is not a fan of the phone.

 

[Beman]

My panther showing his spots pretty much all of the time which I’ve heard is a sign of stress. I’ve been trying to slowly change things about his enclosure to try to find what is stressing him out.

He is right about a year old right now, and is just finishing a shed (which I thought might be a source of stress) in a 2x2x4 ft enclosure. About a week ago I moved his enclosure to a different part of the room because I thought that the light coming in around the blinds at night was stressing him out.

About a month ago I noticed he had some edema forming on the underside of his neck, between his front legs and had just started to show the at the top behind his cask. I researched and found that the problem was likely receiving too much vitamin A and D3 and not being able to metabolize it so since then he has only been receiving vitamin C without D3. At that time I also replaced both his UVB and basking light (Basking temp reaches about 85 by the early afternoon). Temp taken with temp gun.

He eats every other day, 10-15 crickets lightly dusted with the vitamin C without D3, sometimes he eats Dubia roaches and occasionally has a hornworm or two.

Lights are on a 12 hour cycle, automatic misting system at night but I also spray down the enclosure before I go to sleep every night. Humidity reaches +90% every night and drops to about 40% during the day.
In the pictures the dome that is off is a plant grow light that is usually on but has been off the past few days.

All live plants: umbrella tree, pothos, and dracaena, plenty of horizontal branches but he spends all of hot time at the top 3rd of the enclosure.

He is rarely handled but is very trusting of me when I put my hand out for him to walk on to. He is in a room that is pretty much only used for him and the dog never goes into.

Picture description: pic 1-2 enclosure, pic 3-4 Cham, pic 5 supplements, pic 6 old location of enclosure.

He is especially flared up in these photos because he is not a fan of the phone.

Tell me about your rotation for the supplements. Edema is linked to too much D3 and A. Basically fat soluble vitamins that store in the tissues.
What do you mean vitamin C?

 

[MissSkittles]

Are you giving the ReptiVite with D3 and the calcium with D3?

 

[Austin.Hopson]

Tell me about your rotation for the supplements. Edema is linked to too much D3 and A. Basically fat soluble vitamins that store in the tissues.
What do you mean vitamin C?

I’m sorry, the vitamin c was referring to calcium, that is my mistake. I don’t have any vitamin c supplements. The supplement schedule I was using before I noticed the Edema was: calcium without D3 every meal, except when another supplement was used. Calcium with D3 and Vitamin A once per week alternating. In other words, he would receive calcium with D3 one meal that week, the next week that meal would be replaced with vitamin A

 

[Austin.Hopson]

I’m sorry, the vitamin c was referring to calcium, that is my mistake. I don’t have any vitamin c supplements. The supplement schedule I was using before I noticed the Edema was: calcium without D3 every meal, except when another supplement was used. Calcium with D3 and Vitamin A once per week alternating. In other words, he would receive calcium with D3 one meal that week, the next week that meal would be replaced with vitamin A

After I noticed the Edema I stopped using both the calcium with D3 and the Vitamin A

 

[Austin.Hopson]

Are you giving the ReptiVite with D3 and the calcium with D3?

I had not realized it until you mentioned it, but yes, the ReptiVite also has D3 in it

 

[Beman]

I’m sorry, the vitamin c was referring to calcium, that is my mistake. I don’t have any vitamin c supplements. The supplement schedule I was using before I noticed the Edema was: calcium without D3 every meal, except when another supplement was used. Calcium with D3 and Vitamin A once per week alternating. In other words, he would receive calcium with D3 one meal that week, the next week that meal would be replaced with vitamin A

Yeah so he was actually being overdosed on D3. You would not use the calcium with D3 at all due to the reptivite having D3 in it. You would only use the reptivite with D3 two times a month say the 1st and the 15th. Then all other feedings you would use calcium without D3.

How long has he been off the the calcium with D3 and the reptivite?

 

[Austin.Hopson]

Yeah so he was actually being overdosed on D3. You would not use the calcium with D3 at all due to the reptivite having D3 in it. You would only use the reptivite with D3 two times a month say the 1st and the 15th. Then all other feedings you would use calcium without D3.

How long has he been off the the calcium with D3 and the reptivite?

It has been about 3 weeks since he had either the calcium with D3 or the ReptiVite. The edema that I could see starting at the top of his head has gone away and the lump between his front legs has shrunk a little bit. Is it likely the Edema that is keeping him stressed out?

 

[Beman]

It has been about 3 weeks since he had either the calcium with D3 or the ReptiVite. The edema that I could see starting at the top of his head has gone away and the lump between his front legs has shrunk a little bit. Is it likely the Edema that is keeping him stressed out?

Could be something external as well. A cage move can cause stress. They see the room from a different vantage point. Can he see anything reflective like a mirror? Or does he now have a direct view out a window?

Wait another week or two before adding back in the reptivite with D3 twice a month.

You will want to reduce his feeder intake now that he is a year old. You want him to be on an every other day feeding of 4-5 feeders.

 

[Austin.Hopson]

Could be something external as well. A cage move can cause stress. They see the room from a different vantage point. Can he see anything reflective like a mirror? Or does he now have a direct view out a window?

Wait another week or two before adding back in the reptivite with D3 twice a month.

You will want to reduce his feeder intake now that he is a year old. You want him to be on an every other day feeding of 4-5 feeders.

Hey was stressed before the cage move, I moved it so that the light coming around the blinds at night would not be shining into his cage, but he did not see a reflection or out a window in either location.

About 2 months ago I switched his feeder intake to every other day 10-15 feeders, but I’ll start using less feeders now as well.

 

[Beman]

Hey was stressed before the cage move, I moved it so that the light coming around the blinds at night would not be shining into his cage, but he did not see a reflection or out a window in either location.

About 2 months ago I switched his feeder intake to every other day 10-15 feeders, but I’ll start using less feeders now as well.

Any other changes with the enclosure? Or temps? The slightest thing can make them more on edge. Have you had a fecal done to ensure there is not a parasite issue?

 

[Austin.Hopson]

Any other changes with the enclosure? Or temps? The slightest thing can make them more on edge. Have you had a fecal done to ensure there is not a parasite issue?

The temps have stayed the same. Probably 3 weeks ago a moved the dracaena up a little bit and since then he has not really moved down into the lower section of the enclosure, should I maybe move it back down?

I have not done a fecal, it’s a bad excuse but it is just not within my budget at the moment.

 

[Beman]

The temps have stayed the same. Probably 3 weeks ago a moved the dracaena up a little bit and since then he has not really moved down into the lower section of the enclosure, should I maybe move it back down?

I have not done a fecal, it’s a bad excuse but it is just not within my budget at the moment.

Move the dracaena back down and see if this makes a difference over the next few days. They can be very testy when it comes to changes within their home. They get used to it being one way.
My boy will freak if I replace a plant with something different. Once I realized that I had to replace pothos with pothos, plant changes no longer stressed him. But moving the position of any plant still will stress him out so I try not to do that.

 

[Austin.Hopson]

just a quick update, I moved the plants back to where they were but it did not seem to help much.

Also, his Edema seemed to start getting better but did not ever go away completely. The past few days it has started to get worse again. Should I turn off his UVB light so that he is not getting as much D3? He has not really been moving from the middle of his cage kind of like he is trying to find cover from the UVB light. I’m not home in the afternoon, but from the time his lights turn on until 1pm he stays in the same spot. So I’m not sure he goes up to his basking spot after I leave for work.

He’s still eating okay, every other day, 3-5 crickets/black soldier fly larvae.

 

[Beman]

just a quick update, I moved the plants back to where they were but it did not seem to help much.

Also, his Edema seemed to start getting better but did not ever go away completely. The past few days it has started to get worse again. Should I turn off his UVB light so that he is not getting as much D3? He has not really been moving from the middle of his cage kind of like he is trying to find cover from the UVB light. I’m not home in the afternoon, but from the time his lights turn on until 1pm he stays in the same spot. So I’m not sure he goes up to his basking spot after I leave for work.

He’s still eating okay, every other day, 3-5 crickets/black soldier fly larvae.

Hey there. Do not turn of the T5 UVB light. They can not overdose on D3 with their lighting. Their body makes what it needs only in the conversion process.

How are the temps in the cage ambient and basking?

Next step is I can share the husbandry review info for you to fill out and do a total review to see what stands out. Let me know if you want to do this.

 

[Austin.Hopson]

The ambient temps range from the mid 60’s at night and will get up to the low 80’s during the day. The basking spot will get to the low 80’s throughout the day. I can get more specific temps on Thursday because I won’t have work.

I’ll fill out a total husbandry review, yes please!

 

[Beman]

The ambient temps range from the mid 60’s at night and will get up to the low 80’s during the day. The basking spot will get to the low 80’s throughout the day. I can get more specific temps on Thursday because I won’t have work.

I’ll fill out a total husbandry review, yes please!

Ok just copy and paste the form below into your reply then fill it out. Please be as detailed as possible in your responses.


Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
• Location - Where are you geographically located?

Current Problem - The current problem you are concerned about.

--------------

Please Note:

1. The more details you provide the better and more accurate help you will receive.
2. Photos can be very helpful.

 

[SteveH]

For the edema, I would try Reptical without D3 every feeding and switching your vitamins to RepashyLoD. Using RepashyLoD once a month for a couple of months.
Began has been giving solid advice !

 

[Austin.Hopson]

Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - The species, sex, and age of your chameleon. How long has it been in your care?
• Panther Chameleon, Male, 1y 3 months, in my care for 1 year.
• Handling - How often do you handle your chameleon?
• Once every two weeks or more for 5 minutes or less.
• Feeding - What are you feeding your cham? What amount? What is the schedule? How are you gut-loading your feeders?
• Majority crickets, black soldier fly larvae, Dubai roaches when he will eat them, occasionally a horn worm or two. I gut-load the crickets with Romain lettuce and carrots.
• Supplements - What brand and type of calcium and vitamin products are you dusting your feeders with and what is the schedule?
• Zoo-med repticalcium without d3, every feeding, zoo-med reptivite one feeding every other week(has been paused for close to two months due to edema), zoo-med repticalcium with d3 every other week alternating with the reptivite (paused for close to three months due to edema)
• Watering - What kind of watering technique do you use? How often and how long to you mist? Do you see your chameleon drinking?
• distilled water in automatic misting system that sprays for 3-5 minutes every few hours only at night. Humidity reaches +90% every night (from 8pm-6am). Dripper during the day (soft tap water). I rarely see him drink, but eyes are not sunken at all.
• Fecal Description - Briefly note colors and consistency from recent droppings. Has this chameleon ever been tested for parasites?
• medium firm, white/light yellow urate. Not tested for parasites but came from a parasite free father and mother.
• History - Any previous information about your cham that might be useful to others when trying to help you.
• clean well taken care of parents. Not from a breeder but a trusted source.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - Describe your cage (Glass, Screen, Combo?) What are the dimensions?
• screen cage, 2x2x4. Plastic shower curtain on 3 sides for humidity.
• Lighting - What brand, model, and types of lighting are you using? What is your daily lighting schedule?
• zoo-med t5 HO 22” UVB, 75w incandescent bulb for basking spot, full spectrum plant grow light. All lights on automatic timer, 7am-7pm.
• Temperature - What temp range have you created (cage floor to basking spot)? Lowest overnight temp? How do you measure these temps?
• cage floor 63, basking spot 82, lowest temp over night 64 ambient temp, highest ambient temp during the day 73. Temps taken with digital temp/humidity gage
• Humidity - What are your humidity levels? How are you creating and maintaining these levels? What do you use to measure humidity?
• humidity during the day will drop to 44%, at night it will reach 94%. humidity is increased at night with misting, live plants, and a plastic shower curtain wrapped around the two sides and back of screen enclosure. Humidity is measured by digital temp/humidity gage.
• Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
• all live plants. Main plant is an umbrella tree, two pothos hanging about the middle of the cage, dracaena plant at the bottom of cage.
• Placement - Where is your cage located? Is it near any fans, air vents, or high traffic areas? At what height is the top of the cage relative to your room floor?
• cage is located in a room solely used for the Cham on the second floor, very low traffic area, one vent in the room on the opposite side of the room, cage facing a window and the blinds stay closed at all times. Top of the cage is exactly 6ft off the floor.
• Location - Where are you geographically located?
• located in northwest Ohio, just south of Toledo

Current Problem - Cham is always showing his spots, even when not flaring colors, Edema

 

[Austin.Hopson]

For the edema, I would try Reptical without D3 every feeding and switching your vitamins to RepashyLoD. Using RepashyLoD once a month for a couple of months.
Began has been giving solid advice !

I was able to find the Repashy LoD online, but not the reptical. Do you have a link that I could use?