Storing silkworm eggs ?

[Firewallx]

Revising an old thread, but hoping that some of the contributors are still around. I'm going to have a whole mess of 5th instar silkworms in about a week and I'd like to try letting some cocoon and mate, but I have no idea how to set that up. My searches for that information led me here, actually.

I plan to store the eggs per @lele 's recommendations above, but I'm not clear on how to go from emerging moth to eggs attached to something to put into the ziplock container. When I've ordered them, they come glued in a cup, but I'm sure that isn't where she laid the eggs. What sort of substrate do they lay on? Do you just put that substrate right into the Ziplock?

Thanks!

Hi, so I've been raising silkworms since 2020. Usually I place the mating pairs in a container lined with towel paper or wax paper. It's probably best to put a lid and some kind of ventilation. They usually stay put but I have had some climb out and wander off.
You don't have to worry about sticking them down. The female glues them down when laying the eggs. I forgot what it's called.

Lastly, don't refrigerate the eggs right away. Wait until they turn black, that takes three days. This means that the eggs have entered diapause, which is like hibernation for insects. However if they don't turn black, they are not dormant and will hatch. Placing these eggs in the fridge will kill them.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

 

[MissSkittles]

Hi, so I've been raising silkworms since 2020. Usually I place the mating pairs in a container lined with towel paper or wax paper. It's probably best to put a lid and some kind of ventilation. They usually stay put but I have had some climb out and wander off.
You don't have to worry about sticking them down. The female glues them down when laying the eggs. I forgot what it's called.

Lastly, don't refrigerate the eggs right away. Wait until they turn black, that takes three days. This means that the eggs have entered diapause, which is like hibernation for insects. However if they don't turn black, they are not dormant and will hatch. Placing these eggs in the fridge will kill them. To tell male from female, males are crazy and flap their wings & move almost nonstop when triggered. The females are plump & pretty much just sit there.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

^^^ 100%. I use wax or parchment paper for the moths to emerge onto and lay the eggs on. To try and keep things contained, I will place a small paper or plastic cup (with small air hole poked) over the mating pair. This also helps the happy couple not be disturbed by the single males. Once they separate I remove the male so the female can lay her eggs in peace.

 

[Ambilobe70]

Hi, so I've been raising silkworms since 2020. Usually I place the mating pairs in a container lined with towel paper or wax paper. It's probably best to put a lid and some kind of ventilation. They usually stay put but I have had some climb out and wander off.
You don't have to worry about sticking them down. The female glues them down when laying the eggs. I forgot what it's called.

Lastly, don't refrigerate the eggs right away. Wait until they turn black, that takes three days. This means that the eggs have entered diapause, which is like hibernation for insects. However if they don't turn black, they are not dormant and will hatch. Placing these eggs in the fridge will kill them.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

I'm reading that some eggs go into diapause and some simply don't. Is there a logic to that? I don't mind as long as good share do, I'll just raise the others right away. But 1000s hatching all at once for one chameleon is a bit much.

 

[MissSkittles]

I'm reading that some eggs go into diapause and some simply don't. Is there a logic to that? I don't mind as long as good share do, I'll just raise the others right away. But 1000s hatching all at once for one chameleon is a bit much.

I’ve found that almost all of mine turn dark within a few days. Once they do, in the fridge they go for a few months. I think it’s only been once that I had a batch from one moth hatch while I was waiting for them to darken. It was a surprise as at the time, I didn’t even know they could. It was only about 100+ baby silkies. Do make sure though to always have some chow mix on hand…just in case. I get my chow (and eggs) from https://www.coastalsilkworms.com/ who has really good prices and speedy service.

 

[Firewallx]

I'm reading that some eggs go into diapause and some simply don't. Is there a logic to that? I don't mind as long as good share do, I'll just raise the others right away. But 1000s hatching all at once for one chameleon is a bit much.

Yes. The mulberry silkworm has three groups defined by breeding patterns. This has nothing to do with being zebra, regular etc. It has more to do with where they came from. The ones from European sericulture are univoltine; meaning they have just one generation per year then the eggs go dormant for winter. Those from China, Japan and Korea are bivoltine thus they breed twice a year, meaning that one generation doesn't go dormant but one does.
In moths and butterflies, this is determined by environmental cues. Those external cues tell them what season they are in and when winter will be approaching. Although B. Mori is a domestic species, they are still tuned to these patterns. Yes, I know they are bred more often than that, globally but this refers to their natural rhythym, which we fool by simulating winter when storing them.

I've also read a report that says that for the silkworms, the trigger for a batch of eggs may be already determined by what their mother experienced in the egg. I find this a bit confusing since I have had sister moths raised at the same time give different results.

There's not much we can do to influence this; believe me I checked. I hope I explained this well.

 

[Ambilobe70]

Yes. The mulberry silkworm has three groups defined by breeding patterns. This has nothing to do with being zebra, regular etc. It has more to do with where they came from. The ones from European sericulture are univoltine; meaning they have just one generation per year then the eggs go dormant for winter. Those from China, Japan and Korea are bivoltine thus they breed twice a year, meaning that one generation doesn't go dormant but one does.
In moths and butterflies, this is determined by environmental cues. Those external cues tell them what season they are in and when winter will be approaching. Although B. Mori is a domestic species, they are still tuned to these patterns. Yes, I know they are bred more often than that, globally but this refers to their natural rhythym, which we fool by simulating winter when storing them.

I've also read a report that says that for the silkworms, the trigger for a batch of eggs may be already determined by what their mother experienced in the egg. I find this a bit confusing since I have had sister moths raised at the same time give different results.

There's not much we can do to influence this; believe me I checked. I hope I explained this well.

Excellent explanation. So what does this all mean? If the eggs turn gray, toss in the freezer, and if they don't, just let them hatch?

 

[Firewallx]

Excellent explanation. So what does this all mean? If the eggs turn gray, toss in the freezer, and if they don't, just let them hatch?

Thank You!
Yes, if the eggs turn dark in three days, they can go in the fridge. If not, they will hatch. If you don't want them to, you can cull the eggs by putting them in the freezer.

 

[MissSkittles]

Yes. The mulberry silkworm has three groups defined by breeding patterns. This has nothing to do with being zebra, regular etc. It has more to do with where they came from. The ones from European sericulture are univoltine; meaning they have just one generation per year then the eggs go dormant for winter. Those from China, Japan and Korea are bivoltine thus they breed twice a year, meaning that one generation doesn't go dormant but one does.
In moths and butterflies, this is determined by environmental cues. Those external cues tell them what season they are in and when winter will be approaching. Although B. Mori is a domestic species, they are still tuned to these patterns. Yes, I know they are bred more often than that, globally but this refers to their natural rhythym, which we fool by simulating winter when storing them.

I've also read a report that says that for the silkworms, the trigger for a batch of eggs may be already determined by what their mother experienced in the egg. I find this a bit confusing since I have had sister moths raised at the same time give different results.

There's not much we can do to influence this; believe me I checked. I hope I explained this well.

I’m constantly amazed by how much info others know about silkies. When I’ve looked, I’ve only really found stuff about the silk making process, and I really hate how that is done. Maybe I’ve just been looking in the wrong places or wrongly passing over the good info.

 

[Ambilobe70]

Thank You!
Yes, if the eggs turn dark in three days, they can go in the fridge. If not, they will hatch. If you don't want them to, you can cull the eggs by putting them in the freezer.

Sorry, I meant if they turn gray, put them in the fridge to diapause. If not, just let them hatch.

 

[Ambilobe70]

OK, we're getting to showtime in my office. LOL.

Some have started spinning and I have spread the worms out across three different totes with three different ideas for them. I put in a bunch of leaves in each of their totes, but not much eating was happening so I stopped adding a couple days ago. My searches told me that was the right thing to do. Maybe mistake #1.

Tote #1 is the tote they have been living in...plastic shoebox with the top cut out and replaced with screen. They have been climbing to the top corners and spinning, but I've been moving them out once they start if I catch them. This might be mistake #2.

Tote #2, plastic tote with egg crate glued on the sides and top. Pretty ingenious I thought. Any worms that were roaming around Tote #1 were picked off and placed into cells in the egg crate. Most have stayed but only one has spun. The rest just sit there. They are not dead and are moving, but not spinning support threads.

Tote #3, big tote that I filled with these: Dividers I've also been dropping 'roaming' worms from Tote #1 into here. Worms are spread out, but I'd say 50% have gone to the bottom. A few have spun but again, a lot seem to just be sitting around.

I added fresh leaves today, and there is definitely eating going on, so maybe that was the issue, that I pulled them off food too fast.

Any thoughts on where I am here? I'll post some pics soon.

 

[MissSkittles]

This can be a messy time for them between food, poop and purging themselves right before cocooning. Make sure to have plenty of air flow and space for them or mold can develop. Keeping them clean can be a challenge though.
I use chow and will provide small amounts of food until it’s very obvious they are no longer eating. It never fails that even though we provide them with plenty of great places for them to anchor and cocoon, they choose the top corners of their bins. If at all possible, let those who have started spinning there, continue. They can only produce so much silk and disturbing/moving them often results in not having enough to create a good or even any cocoon. As long as they are fully enveloped in their cocoon, I will then move them to somewhere else as all the rest of their work is done inside. I have had some which pupate without any cocoon and they have emerged just fine. I do prefer if they are in a cocoon for protection so will clean out an empty cocoon (after a moth has emerged) and place the pupa in it. Often you will have some in full cocoons while others are still eating and pooping. Once the cocoon has fully formed, I move it to a clean bin. I place all of the cocoons in a decent sized bin on wax or parchment paper. The fluids they expel after emerging can evaporate and keep things dry. Hope this helps.

 

[Ambilobe70]

This can be a messy time for them between food, poop and purging themselves right before cocooning. Make sure to have plenty of air flow and space for them or mold can develop. Keeping them clean can be a challenge though.
I use chow and will provide small amounts of food until it’s very obvious they are no longer eating. It never fails that even though we provide them with plenty of great places for them to anchor and cocoon, they choose the top corners of their bins. If at all possible, let those who have started spinning there, continue. They can only produce so much silk and disturbing/moving them often results in not having enough to create a good or even any cocoon. As long as they are fully enveloped in their cocoon, I will then move them to somewhere else as all the rest of their work is done inside. I have had some which pupate without any cocoon and they have emerged just fine. I do prefer if they are in a cocoon for protection so will clean out an empty cocoon (after a moth has emerged) and place the pupa in it. Often you will have some in full cocoons while others are still eating and pooping. Once the cocoon has fully formed, I move it to a clean bin. I place all of the cocoons in a decent sized bin on wax or parchment paper. The fluids they expel after emerging can evaporate and keep things dry. Hope this helps.

Is the tote you move them to open top? I assume they can't get out, right?

Another question that I can't get a firm answer to...Claude gave me this info, which I was able to mostly verify:

Whether the eggs your moths lay go into diapause isn't purely about temperature/light you control after the fact — it depends heavily on the strain. Silkworm strains fall into three genetic categories:

Univoltine — always diapause, no matter what.
Multivoltine — never diapause, always hatch quickly. Most commercially sold "hatching eggs" (which is what you likely bought, since they hatched readily for you) are multivoltine hybrids, bred specifically for reliable non-diapause hatching.
Bivoltine — the only category that's actually photoperiod/temperature responsive, where long-day + warm rearing of the mother produces non-diapause eggs and short-day + cool produces diapause eggs.

If your stock is a multivoltine commercial hybrid (likely, given it hatched cleanly for you), the eggs your moths lay will probably be non-diapause regardless of what light/temp conditions you rear them under — the strain just isn't wired to diapause. You won't know until you try: lay eggs, hold a portion at room temp and see if they hatch in the usual 8–10 days (non-diapause) or sit dormant and darken (diapause attempt).

So, what has everyone's else' experience been? My whole goal has been to get eggs that I can bring out of cold storage every 2 week in small batches (10-20) to keep a nice steady supply of feeder-size worms all winter.

 

[MissSkittles]

Is the tote you move them to open top? I assume they can't get out, right?

Another question that I can't get a firm answer to...Claude gave me this info, which I was able to mostly verify:

Whether the eggs your moths lay go into diapause isn't purely about temperature/light you control after the fact — it depends heavily on the strain. Silkworm strains fall into three genetic categories:

Univoltine — always diapause, no matter what.
Multivoltine — never diapause, always hatch quickly. Most commercially sold "hatching eggs" (which is what you likely bought, since they hatched readily for you) are multivoltine hybrids, bred specifically for reliable non-diapause hatching.
Bivoltine — the only category that's actually photoperiod/temperature responsive, where long-day + warm rearing of the mother produces non-diapause eggs and short-day + cool produces diapause eggs.

If your stock is a multivoltine commercial hybrid (likely, given it hatched cleanly for you), the eggs your moths lay will probably be non-diapause regardless of what light/temp conditions you rear them under — the strain just isn't wired to diapause. You won't know until you try: lay eggs, hold a portion at room temp and see if they hatch in the usual 8–10 days (non-diapause) or sit dormant and darken (diapause attempt).

So, what has everyone's else' experience been? My whole goal has been to get eggs that I can bring out of cold storage every 2 week in small batches (10-20) to keep a nice steady supply of feeder-size worms all winter.

I’ve learned to keep a lid on their bins. Lol Once had cocoons stuck on the wall and other places in a closet and the male moths are insane and will travel quite a bit if not confined.
I was unaware that some eggs may be ready to hatch soon after being laid. But, I don’t refrigerate them until they darken fully. Only once did I have a batch from one moth hatch right away and that was a surprise. All the rest darken within a few days and I diapause them for about 3 months before trying to hatch them. I have no access to mulberry leaves so have to rely upon chow mix and always make sure to have at least a couple of packets of it on hand. Depending on how many eggs I’m hatching, I’ll prepare the chow by 1/4 lb or even 1/8 lb for starting a small amount of freshly hatched eggs.