Still having a few issues with Penelope :/

[PenelopeLove]

Hello

Thank you to everyone for all of the advice last week! It has definitely helped and improved things immensely!

I'm still having a little trouble

Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Veiled Chameleon, Female, 5 Months. She has been with me now for 8 days.
Handling - Once every 2 or 3 days if I need to do something for her. Yesterday we went for a little adventure in the backyard.. she seemed to love walking around in the grass and climbing one of the little trees!
Feeding - Mealworms (gutloading with dry gutload formula and fruits and veggies). The crickets scare her so I changed to mealworms just to get her eating as this is my main problem at the moment. Yesterday and today (morning) she ate 5-6 worms when feeding her.
Supplements - I have ordered Rep-Cap Calcium 0% D3 and Sticky Tongue Farms Indoor Miner-all. I hope it will arrive within the week.
Watering – I am using a drip bottle which she likes to drink from. I mist 2-3 times a day for 30-45secs.
Fecal Description – I was worried about the white curly poops until I realised that's what urates were! haha! Her Urates are perfect (such a proud mummy I am!), but she doesn't poop every day. After 6 mealworms yesterday, she did one big blob poop and it looked to me like the skins of the worms hadn't really been broken down fully. In comparison to pooping out a cricket's head and a wing, I felt like the one yesterday was a massive improvement, but I'm still a bit worried. She has not been tested for anything.
History – I don’t have any other history.


Cage Info:
Cage Type – Penelope’s house is 45cm³. It has a glass floor and walls with 4 side ventilation points and a mesh lid.
Lighting – I have a ceramic lamp with the black cover, which has a 50w Reptile One Basking Lamp in it which is on from around 7am until roughly 8pm-9pm. I have ordered a Reptisun 5.0 UVB lamp and I am hoping it will arrive within the week.
Temperature – I have placed the lamp at the back of the cage resting on the mesh above the highest vine in her cage. The vine would be about 35cm from the floor of the cage. At night I think the temp would be around 15-20ºC.
Humidity – I really can’t answer this question because I am not sure. I am creating humidity through misting and with potted plants. I have ordered a thermo/hygrometer.
Plants – She has a Pothos, Benjimina Ficus, and 2 Dracaenas.
Placement – She is in my room about a meter off the floor. The room has AC on all the time, but with winter coming I will be able to open the windows and let fresh air in the room. It is a low traffic area as it is my bedroom and she has the day to herself. The height from the floor to the top of her cage would be around 1.5-1.6m.
Location – Dubai, United Arab Emirates


Current Problem – It seems she is still not eating properly, although her consumption has increased with the mealworms (5-6 each morning), she seems VERY skinny. when she starts to receive her supplements and has the UVB lamp, will this increase her appetite and help her gain weight? When I feed her, she is eating what she wants and I know that because after the 5th/6th one, she just turns away and isn't interested anymore.
I'm also worried a little about her energy/strength. Her back legs and tail seem fine and her grip is strong, but her front legs seem weak and she seems apprehensive when trying to move or change positions. She has fallen/slipped a few times when reaching with her front legs and trying to hold on with her hands. I just pop my hand in the cage when I hear her do that and she knows to use it to get to where she wants to go. It's not that her vines and branches are not reachable, but it just seems she's not gripping properly?

She still hasn't turned that "tree green" colour, but she goes a pastel minty green sort of colour and yesterday in the garden she had some beautiful bluish-green stripes up her veil and lots of dots everywhere.. the first time I've seen them!

 

[PenelopeLove]

Photos of Penelope from yesterday.

 

[camimom]

Hello.
A few things I see-

• Mealworms are not extremely nutritous. Crickets dont scare chams, shes just being a child and wanting her dessert (mealies) without eating dinner (crickets). Stop feeding so many mealworms and give her only crickets. if she goes a fwea days without eating, she will survive.
• YOu need to get info on gutloading your crickets, as what they eat, your cham eats. so find blogs from sandrachameleon on the forum.
• No one bug should make up more than 40% of her diet. You need to get a higher variety of bugs for her.
• Supplementing- I dont know about the miner-all, but you need a calcium without d3 every feeding, a calcium with d3 twice a month, and a multivitamin twice a month.
• If youve only had her for a few days, she still settling in, so give her time.
• she looks abit dehydrated, so I would up her mistings to at least 4-5 times per day, for the same amount of time.
• for basking- you can use a regular house bulb, no need to waste money on the petstore basking bulbs.
• What is your basking temp during the day? and what is that night temp in Farenheit?
• Shes probably not eating because she is trying to settle in, stop handling her completely for now.
• Chams are not high energetic animals, so if they dont move from the same spot for a few hours, its totally normal. The weakness in her front legs is worrisome though, what makes you so sure they are weak?
• As for the unsure of walking part, are you sure shes not doing the leaf walk that all chams do? if this is waht she is doing, its normal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c7XiwSM-oA
• How big are the vines she has in her cage? if they are too big for her hands/feet, then it can cause the falling.
  
• Can you post a photo of her cage please?
  
• her coloring is normla, shes not going to be bright green like the grass... and the blue marking means shes entering sexual maturity, which means you need to get a lay bin for her.
• a lay bin is a bucket filled with sand or dirt, that is damp enough to hold a tunnel for her to dig in when she has to lay eggs, but not so damp it collapses.
• And yes, females lay eggs even when not bred.

 

[jannb]

I'm glad you were able to post the pictures. Her eyes look sunk in which is often a sign of dehydration. I would recommend a long warm shower or misting. To be honest she just doesn't look healthy to me. If you have a chameleon vet I would definitely get her in for a check up and fecal. As far as having eggs, I really can't tell by the pictures but an x-ray would tell you for sure.

 

[AngieL]

I agree with Jann and mom. I think you've been sold a poorly Cham she looks really thin and dehydrated. Also, she has her big girl colours, how sure are you of her age?

I hope she gets better soon

 

[mcbdz]

I agree with jannb, She just doesn't look good. And there can be several reasons for the undigested poops but usually not fed earlier enough or getting warm enough to get the food digested. See link below. Chameleons need to eat and then beable to get warm and bask for 4-6 hours to digest their food.
and still get her seen by a vet that has experience with Chameleons.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/75-feeder-nutrition-gutloading.html

 

[PenelopeLove]

Thank you so much for all your help everyone.. I think you're right on the her being poorly bit... Today I took a really close look at her and found that her nostrils were blocked with some yellow crustyness (not like the white mineral stuff) and was looks a little like a brown mucus towards the back edges of her mouth... I'm taking her to the vet first thing in the morning!
I'll go and get some more crickets and get her back on those again.. I'm still trying to source someone I can get varied feeders from and will keep trying.
I was told by the pet shop that she was 5 months but I will get the vet to tell me what they think too..
I'll crank up the misting to encourage her.. She has a fav spot up next to her dripper so I think she hasn't had a decent drink... I'll keep an eye on her and mist, mist, mist!
With her front legs, I think she's weak because not only does she not really use them when climbing, but when I've held her there is almost no strength in her grip if she even tries! I'll have a chat and point that out with the vet as well.
I do hope I can help her get better.. There must be hundreds of others like her here and it just makes me so sad!
Last question! Angie - you said that it looks like her big girl colours have come?? Are her colours ok? Is it a bad thing that she wouldn't turn that normal green colour?

 

[PenelopeLove]

Oh and yes she does do the leafy walk.. She's got that down to a fine art! But it's when she really should be using her front legs to grip something that the problem comes up... I'll have a really good chat with the vet tomorrow and see if I can get it sorted... I'll be going to a specialist in exotic animals who has a lot of experience in chameleons.
Again, thank you everyone for all of your advice! It certainly helps me feel more at ease to know where my problems are and what I need to fix!

 

[AngieL]

Her colouring looks fine by big girl colours I mean the orange and blue that the girls get when they become sexually mature. Juvinile female veileds and males for that matter are usually plain green. Then as they mature they get pretty colours so they can show off and get a mate

I'm glad you're going to a vet, the crusties and mucus could be an infection. Infections can cause a decreased apetite, weakness and lethargy too.

 

[PenelopeLove]

Her colouring looks fine by big girl colours I mean the orange and blue that the girls get when they become sexually mature. Juvinile female veileds and males for that matter are usually plain green. Then as they mature they get pretty colours so they can show off and get a mate

I'm glad you're going to a vet, the crusties and mucus could be an infection. Infections can cause a decreased apetite, weakness and lethargy too.

OHHHHH! haha! I kept thinking there was something wrong that she didn't go green like evryone else!! No blues or oranges yet, but I'll keep an eye out for when she gets better and is ready for it

She's not digesting anything now!!! She just pooped out COMPLETE worms!!!! Taking her to the vet couldn't have come at a better time! The earliest I could get in was the afternoon, so I'm just counting down the hours till we get there

 

[camimom]

With the mucus, I wouldnt be surprised if she has a respiratory infection.
She is very dehydrated, and Im sure shes been under supplemented, which wont help her. so make sure you get that on track asap.

If shes pooping out whole worms, she could have a parasite that isnt allowing her to digest food, or her basking temp isnt warm enough, I suggest getting a digitial thermometer and checking what her temps are at.

try to find a very recent poop of hers, and take it to the vet so they can run a fecal for parasites.

Good luck and keep us updated!

 

[PenelopeLove]

Hello Everyone

Well what an afternoon Penelope and I had at the vet!

The doctor I met was fantastic! He spent almost an hour with me and made sure he didn't miss a single thing with Penelope! I couldn't be more grateful right now!

For sure she has an infection for which I've been given antibiotics to give to her orally and he showed me how to clean out her nose without hurting her.

Of course you could all see she was extremely malnourished.. I have been given syringes prepared with saline and a medicine to help get her digestinal tract back on track to get her able to eat properly and digest it.. He has showed me how to properly administer it so that I do the right thing..
I have also been given a liquid vitamin formula to give to her to boost all that she has been lacking in..

My poor girl only weighs 42 grams! I seriously had tears in my eyes I was so upset to confirm just how badly she had been treated! So disgusting!

He's asked me to feed her the freshly shed mealworms over the next few days if possible and feed her squished crickets if I have to.. We are trying to get her to do a good poop so we can get a fecal sample tested.. When her poops get better and she is able to digest properly I'll be able to get her back on the crickets I took the wormy one with me to the vet so I could show him just how bad it is and he asked me to bring in a good poop as soon as she can give me one.. Fingers crossed its soon!

My order for supplements and lighting is on its way from the US so hopefully it won't be too much longer till they arrive.

Hopefully she'll be heading back on track by the end of the weekend

I can't say thank you enough for all of your comments and advise.. You have all really helped me so much x

 

[AngieL]

I'm so glad you got a good vet that was able to help

If she won't eat live bugs you could feed her 'bug juice' which is basically blended crickets. Some people add supplements to it but if you already have vitamins etc. from the vet then you won't need to add.

I wish you both the best of luck and please keep us updated.

 

[Tifanydalpont]

I'm so glad you got a good vet that was able to help

If she won't eat live bugs you could feed her 'bug juice' which is basically blended crickets. Some people add supplements to it but if you already have vitamins etc. from the vet then you won't need to add.

I wish you both the best of luck and please keep us updated.

i've done this before

 

[Tifanydalpont]

she might be too cold they need a basking light of 90 -100 degrees..that helps digest food..and feed her in the morning not at night that will give her time to digest...bottom of the cage should be around 80-70. and no lower then 60 degrees at night..where is her cage their should be no cool air blowing or any breez....lighting should be 12 hour on and 12 hour off with a timer hooked up to the lights

 

[Tifanydalpont]

she it very dark..they turn dark to try to absorb heat...turn off the air conditoning!!!!

 

[PenelopeLove]

she it very dark..they turn dark to try to absorb heat...turn off the air conditoning!!!!

She was only dark when I took the pics cause she had enough of being a supermodel and having her photo taken
She's usually a lovely pastel green sort of colour when she's in her cage

Unfortunately where I am, it is very hard to get hold of anything that I need for her cage, even supplements! I've ordered her a UVB lamp and fitting, her calcium and supplements and a digital thermo/hygrometer from the US, which I hope will all arrive very soon! Once I get those, I'll be able to better monitor the temps and humidity and get that A-OK to keep her happy. Her lamp is on at least 12 hours. I don't have a timer, but I do have OCD, so I'm pretty particular about making sure I go turn off the lamp when its time for lights out

Could you tell me how you make the bug juice and how you feed it to them? I have been feeding her in the morning because I knew about her needing the heat to digest, but the past few mornings she hasn't been interested (which I now understand why). She didn't eat this morning, but she generally isn't into eating in the afternoon/evening so I might skip trying later today and just try again in the morning. Hopefully she'll be starving and want something to fill her little belly!

 

[PenelopeLove]

Oh! And I was able to source the person/company who the petshop got her from and the gets the feeders from (just by sheer chance!) as I was trying to find out if there was any way to get a better variety of feeders here.
I told him what has happened, not in a mean way or anything, and he assured me that when she went to the petshop, she was perfectly healthy as he would never sell an animal that was unwell. He also gave me some advice to help get her eating, all similar to what you have all advised as well.
He was able to confirm that she is approx. 5-6months so I feel a lot better knowing that

 

[jannb]

I'm glad to hear that you took her to the vets. Hoping for a speedy recovery for your little girl.

 

[PenelopeLove]

I'm glad to hear that you took her to the vets. Hoping for a speedy recovery for your little girl.

Thank you Jann x