Started out as an eye problem...

Creepers

New Member
Chameleon Info:
Your Chameleon - Vieled Cham, approx 5 months old. owned for 3 months.
Handling -very little, a couple minutes a week.
Feeding - 3 small to medium gutloaded crickets (fluckers brand cricket food) in the am. 2 more at 7pm.
Supplements - we dust a cricket with a calcium +D3 once a week.
Watering - we mist 3-4 times a day, and there is a waterfall in his home ( cleaned weekly).
Fecal Description - recent droppings are white with a darker dry brown.
History - no known history.


Cage Info:
Cage Type - 10gal aquarium
Lighting - one 50watt red heat lamp, and a uvb bulb-50watt for daytime (12 hours of "day")
Temperature - cage floor is about 75, basking spot is 95 ( 7 inches from bulb. )
Humidity - misting 3-4 times a day, waterfall cleaned weekly. humidity ranges from 30-60
Plants- no live plants.
Placement - in a bedroom, quiet area.not in direct sunlight. cage is approx. 3 feet off the floor.
Location - northern NJ


Related info- It has been a month since the last shedding. so its most likely not leftover dead skin...he has been eating dispite not being able to see very well without help.

Current Problem -

4 days ago now, i noticed Creeprs (cute name :p ) had some milky film over his eyes. I misted extra thinking it was just something in his eye he was having trouble getting out. His eyes appeared to clear up. Last night i saw a pink bubble coming out of his one eye and he was rubbing it trying to get it out. We took him to the nearest critter ER and the vet there gave him vitamen b, a and d oraly and some antibiolics.


Now he is 150% worse off...

Now he is extremely weak and cant climb. He has zero cordination- and has been flopping around. His eyes are clear so i do not think its his eyesight causing the trouble. He fell ( 2 inches) off a leaf this morning and flopped around on the cage floor for about an hour before he seemingly gave up. He is now sprawled on the cage floor not even attemtping to grab anything. He is still looking around and breathing, and i think he even managed to pull a cricket in. he is gray and black and looking very unhappy. His limbs look straight and he has full range of movement when he flops....


Before you say the cage might be too small for him he is about the same size as when we got him and has only shed once. I was told by the vet that 5 crickets is plenty for a cham his size....


Any advice....This came out of nowhere. nothing was changed in his cage or the room he is in....


and any hints as to why he is not growing would be helpful too.
 

Julirs

New Member
There is so much wrong here it is hard to know where to start. Of course I will start out with the 10 gallon, which despite being too small is all too wrong to house a cham in past the age of a month or so. They do not provide adequate airflow and I also find it hard to beleive that anyone can mist enough in one to provide adequate hydration to anything older than a few months. Waterfalls are just bad no matter how clean you thing you keep it. In a 10 gallon a water fall could make it too humid with poor air flow-all kinds of bad things result from that. Next-there is no such thing as a 50 watt UVB-so you do not have a UVB bulb. Despite the fact his legs are straigh-he could still have MBD-and this could also be the result of poor supplementing and gutloading. You are not dusting enough with calcium, and once a week is too much D3. If you are not using fresh fruits and veggies, you are not gutloading correctly. All this plus the small tank size are reasons he is not growing. Your basking spot is WAY WAY WAY too high-there is no way that you have one part of the tank 95 and have the rest of it much cooler-I am suprised he is not cooked. It sounds like he is severely dehydrated. I am not sure there is much you can do now-except turn off the lights and get your heat way down, and then if he makes it completely change what you are currently doing. I wish you have come here sooner so we could have helped with your husbandry. It does not sound like the Vet you took him to knows too much about chams either.
 

Julirs

New Member
Also-If I am reading correctly, you have the red light on 24 hours a day? Chams need no light and no heat at night unless your temps are dropping below 50-and most people's houses do not drop that low.
 

Creepers

New Member
His age is estimated. he might only be 3 1/2 months old for what i know... which would put his size as accurate. I am more interested in what effect the additional vits. and antibiotics might have on a cham. and if his reaction to it is normal.


I have a single thermometer under the lamp at basking level and one on the opposite end of the cage at ground level. I am measuring my temp accurately what ever you might find hard to believe.

... The bulb says 50w 60hz 120 v UV not UVB, sorry

Though you lack some MUCH NEEDED manners- I thank you for the advise. A lot of it does contradict with what ive read on this forum, other internet resources, and vet advise.
 

Julirs

New Member
Please feel free to point out where I had a lack of much needed manners. I was simply factual. Whatever tone you chose to read into it was apparently misinterpreted by you. I am happy to help, despite it may not be what you want to hear.

You need to immediately change the things I talked about IF you want to save this animal, but I fear it may be too late.

Did the Vet you saw tell you why he was giving antibiotics? Which one did he prescribe? It sounds like he was just stabbing at the air for anything he thought might help, which could be dangerous.
 

Julirs

New Member
Additionally, a chameleon that age should be eating upwards of 15 small-medium crickets a day-another reason he is not growing.
 

cantgetagoodsn

Avid Member
His age is estimated. he might only be 3 1/2 months old for what i know... which would put his size as accurate. I am more interested in what effect the additional vits. and antibiotics might have on a cham. and if his reaction to it is normal.


I have a single thermometer under the lamp at basking level and one on the opposite end of the cage at ground level. I am measuring my temp accurately what ever you might find hard to believe.

... The bulb says 50w 60hz 120 v UV not UVB, sorry

Though you lack some MUCH NEEDED manners- I thank you for the advise. A lot of it does contradict with what ive read on this forum, other internet resources, and vet advise.
Everything he/she said is right, there is quite a bit you need to change. As far as manners, he/she was fine, just because the information is criticism does not mean it's rude. but those things that were mentioned should be changed ASAP. How much research did you do on this forum? There isnt a single member that would tell you a waterfall is a beneficial thing. All it does is build up bacteria from droppings and houses it so it can grow. That might be one of the issues here.
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
IMHO that chameleon needs to see a vet right now who knows about chameleons.

What is the name of the antibiotic that it was given?

Can you please post a very recent picture of it?

What is the brand and type (spiral, compact, long linear tube, etc.) of the UVB light?

You are definitely underfeeding it. It should have had a phos.-free calcium powder dusted on the insects just before feeding them to the chameleon at most feedings.

IMHO I would not use a waterfall or a light at night...they are bacteria breeding areas unless kept scrupulously clean. If the chameleon's cage temperature drops below the mid 60's at night you can use a ceramic heat emitter that screws into a light fixture to give it some heat.

I recommend using three supplements (as indicated further down in my post).



Here's some information that I hope will help you...
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption. Temperatures needed can vary with the species and age. For hatchling panthers I keep the temperature in the warmest area in the low 80's. For older panthers I keep it in the mid to high 80's for the most part.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

Since many of the feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.
 

Creepers

New Member
i do agree there is some tweaking to my husbandry that needs to be addressed, but no one read what the problem was- the antibiotics were for his eye- and i believe his current state is a result of them.

Up until his visit to the vet he was very active and a "happy green" , so i had no idea anything was wrong with my husbandry...the vet confirmed that i was taking adiquate care- but if "the experts" here believe otherwise.... I'll be sure to add some variety to his diet, and up the amount a bit- but he will only eat 3 crickets at a time, and im not going to forcefeed...

his cage will also be changed to a more spaceous one.


I researched this forum the three months i have owned him. i have made several changes based on what was advised within this site. The waterfall is a topic that is argued frequently, and I'm sorry but if it is cleaned often bacteria will not reach the levels you all speak of. My normal pet of choice is exotic birds- I am used to sensitive animals with special needs. the waterfall is no different from the drip systems you use except in that he can in therory poo in it. but again- CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN.


My apartment is normally 65 hence why the red light is on most of the time. I have turned it off for now- to see if anything changes in his mood.


The antibiotics are "Baytril" ...thats what it says o the bottle..


As for my manners comment- please rememeber that on the interenet only your words can represent you. Starting off what was for the most part a friendly advisory with the statement "There is so much wrong here it is hard to know where to start" is rude. I am posting here for advise- not snide comments. I love my pet, as i'm sure you love yours. Lets not add to the stress by including egos in the mix. Thank you.
 

Creepers

New Member
IMHO that chameleon needs to see a vet right now who knows about chameleons.

What is the name of the antibiotic that it was given?

Can you please post a very recent picture of it?

What is the brand and type (spiral, compact, long linear tube, etc.) of the UVB light?

You are definitely underfeeding it. It should have had a phos.-free calcium powder dusted on the insects just before feeding them to the chameleon at most feedings.

IMHO I would not use a waterfall or a light at night...they are bacteria breeding areas unless kept scrupulously clean. If the chameleon's cage temperature drops below the mid 60's at night you can use a ceramic heat emitter that screws into a light fixture to give it some heat.

I recommend using three supplements (as indicated further down in my post).



Here's some information that I hope will help you...
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption. Temperatures needed can vary with the species and age. For hatchling panthers I keep the temperature in the warmest area in the low 80's. For older panthers I keep it in the mid to high 80's for the most part.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

Since many of the feeder insects have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.

Here are some good sites for you to read...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.
Thank you, that was very informative! :)
 

Julirs

New Member
As for my manners comment- please rememeber that on the interenet only your words can represent you. Starting off what was for the most part a friendly advisory with the statement "There is so much wrong here it is hard to know where to start" is rude. I am posting here for advise- not snide comments. I love my pet, as i'm sure you love yours. Lets not add to the stress by including egos in the mix. Thank you.
You are right-only your words, so conversely people should try not to read into what they think the tone is. I don't find even my intro rude, just factual. My interest here is to help you help your chameleon. Ego does not even come into the equation, or I would not even attempt to help. Sometimes a wake up call is needed.

You need to get a proper UVB bulb right away-this is crucial to the health of your chameleon. Chameleons also need a night temp drop-and that can mean down to 50 degrees with no problems. Most people's houses do not drop quite that low, so low 70's to upper 60's is normal. Day basking for a juvie Veiled should be mid-80's. Baytril is commonly used for infections, but make sure you are watering a little more as it is hard on kidneys.

Again, my intent is to help and not chase you away. Unfortunately most pet stores and even most Vets are not familiar with the needs of chams. We see alot of people gettng the same advice as you have gotten thus far.
 

SarahChamlove

New Member
thank you for sharing about your chameleons

after reading some of the information that you shared, I will have to agree with some of the previous post.

try go to a site that i like to visit to buy my chameleon things and its pretty affordable www.lllreptile.com

chameleon should not be in an aquarium, instead should have a mesh like material (no fine metal) for them to breathe properly. Also on the wed site I've provided you will find proper lighting. a heating bulb (depending on where you live, a normal house bulb is just fine). the uvb bulb should be full spectrum and should be the same length as the terrarium. a waterfall is not something you would want to have because you have the risk of the chameleon falling in and drowning. instead a fogger is ideal. although a fogger can come with a high price, live plants with porous clay rocks at the bottom with soil on as a second layer and moss on top can provide proper humidy.

now as far as what your chameleons is going thru, just should like an environmental problem. if you change everything that i provided above you will see results right away.

When taking your chameleon to the vet, the vet using supplements was the proper thing to do and should have provided you with those supplement for you to use at home. Next time, make sure you do your research on the vet. make sure who ever is handling your chameleons, they are experts.
if the vet did not ask about terrarium, ask for picture, talk to you about supplements and feeding (gut loading) or even provide your proper medication, then that is not the right vet!

I hope all of this helps you. make sure you go online today and shop for the proper set up for your cham =]
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
I've never known baytril to cause such reactions as you've described....but not saying its not possible of course.
 

SarahChamlove

New Member
oh yeah i forgot to mention. you say your feeding 3 crickets at a time. it is best to feed to chameleon once a day. something i advise, take a large soda bottle, cut in half, take your dusted crickets and put around 12-18 crickets in there. allow your chameleon to perch on something like a stick or one of the tree vines. this will allow a feeding frenzy. baby chameleons are known to eat alot, and three is just not enough. I have a female and a male. My female can eat up to 18 per day and she is normal weight (45grams months). My male is under weight due to being a runt and parasite but he is 8 grams.

you have to allow them to eat however much they want to until it is an adult
 

EvilLost

New Member
I agree with what most others have said on here.

He is definitely eating way too little for his age; his cage is too small and the wrong material (glass bad). waterfall is bad. do you have a substrate? if so, generally bad unless it is a female in which case when appropriate you should provide a laying bin. supplementation is off but others pointed that out. humidity is a bit low and temps are a bit high. Glass does not vent properly and chams have sensitive respiratory systems; at the very least you should install 2 computer fans to vent it out (input/output) but unless you know what you are doing it is probably easier just to get an appropriate cage; besides that doesn't fix the size or glass issue. lastly, chameleons are arboreal...so unless you are standing your 10gal on its end, you are lacking height as well

also, if that red light is 24hrs a day (as i read it to be); chameleons can SEE red light. which means that your poor guy is also lacking a day/night cycle even though I realize you tried to give him one.

I'd be wary of your vet if you told him everything you have told us and he said your husbandry was good; its not terrible, but many little things do need to be adjusted.

Lastly, a picture goes a really long way...

As for Julie's response; I don't think it was meant to be rude, rather she was being straightforward and well, criticism is criticism. She's pretty well known on these forums for being quite knowledgeable.
 

jojackson

New Member
Creepers,
Baytril is a very harsh drug, often (imo) over prescribed by vets for reptiles.
Your lizard is comparatively small and although you havent mentioned the dosage or delivery method, you should be aware that Baytril will have detrimental effect on a small lizards renal system.
during treatment with this drug, its very important to ensure abundant drinking as they can dehydrate quikly with the combined effect of high heat in confined space and the drug.
Dehydration in a very small lizard can quickly lead to renal shutdown (kidney/liver failure) and death.
While this may not be the case with your small lizard, its well worth investigating its hydration status. If his eyes appear sunken and or the skin abnormally wrinkled, hes dehydrated.
Looking at his last poo will also yeild answers in this regard, If the white component (urate) is yellowed or orange, its very dehydrated and you will need to adress this immeadiately.
The best way to acheive this is with hand misting from a spray bottle over your lizards head (never directly into the mouth*) for several minutes at a time until you see it lap up the water. You may need to do this several times a day.
* Inhaling water causes aspiration pnuemonia which often kills reptiles, spraying int the mouth risk water going down the treachea (air tube) and into the lungs, so please avoid this.
I also recommend if at all possible you take your lizard to a different and more expert (reptiles) vet. Many members here will be happy to recommend one near you if you advise your location.
Best wishes :)
 

Creepers

New Member
I'll give an update on creepers...

Thank you everyone for the helpful information, but none of it is helping.

We have had to handfeed and water being he can no longer lift his head. we are lucky if we can get him to eat a single cricket...let alone 10-15... I have changed his environment to what you guys all specified but it did not help.

After reading up on what baytril does...then we add the vitamen A shot which can also cause kidney troubles in reptiles if it is an excessive amount ( based on his itty bittyness...its almost guarenteed)...

These symptoms all occured within 20 minutes of his vet visit. I am almost 100% convinced that he is now suffereing from a kidney failure. He has not let out any droppings since the visit....

Were now just hoping that the medication and vits will work their way out of his system by the end of the week like the vet said...

This obviously wasnt the vet of choice...

as a sidenote- he is not showing any signs of dehydration. his skin is not loose, nor are his eyes shrunken in.
 
Last edited:

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
Even if he's not showing signs of dehydration you need to make sure that he is drinking well...but if he's not drinking on his own/responsive this will be hard because you don't want him to aspirate it.
 

SarahChamlove

New Member
im so sorry to hear that :( changing the enviroment was the best thing to do. still make sure he is getting water. you can take a small sirenge (excuse my spelling) and give him .01 at a time. you can take a q-tip and gently open his mouth squirt alittle in a few times a day. this will also help with hand feeding.
keep us updated. I'm surprised that with his condition the vet did not take over. i still think you should do some research on a good vet. someone who speciallizes in chameleon because from your previous post, it just doen't sound like you vet knows what is doing. thats just my opinion!
 

kinyonga

Chameleon Enthusiast
If you squirt fluids into a chameleon's mouth when the chameleon is in an unresponsive state it will likely aspirate it. This is why I was saying it could be a problem hydrating it to help the kidneys when its in this state. However, it still needs to be hydrated somehow.
 
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