Squee's spine infection, and some lessons learned

Psychobunny

Avid Member
So, I started a thread a few days ago when my panther cham started to get sick. I thought it might be a vitamin thing, or something lacking in his diet.

It turned out to be an infection.
He had some old shed along the top of his spine that had been there too long,
plus he was avoiding the basking light (40w incan bulb), so was not properly
heating himself up.

I put some Neosporin on his spine, and this removed enough of the old shed
skin to reveal a dry scab hiding under it.

He had not shed completely since June, so I wondered if his spine did not
shed because it was too close to the basking bulb, and that kept the spine
too dry, in spite of my frequent mistings.

So, I took another temp reading at his basking spot, but this time, I raised
the probe so it would be level with his top spine. It was in the 90's F, which
isn't burning hot, but hot enough to prevent shedding.
I lowered his basking branch by about 4'' until the temp went down to 83F.

I took Squee to the vet Thursday.
He picked the scab off of Squee with his fingers, exposing the wound, and
making it bleed a little. He said you need to do this.
Then he put some 2% Mupirocin ointment (made for dogs) on it.
A shot of saline to get him hydrated, and a shot of Baytrill.

Now I have to treat Squee 2 times a day with the ointment and 0.1cc of
Baytrill solution the vet gave me.

Having had no luck getting Squee to open his mouth for me, the vet taught
me how; he said, 'you just need to really piss him off', so he grabed Squee
from above, in a threatening way (the way we are always told NOT to hold them), and that made Squee gape in anger.

Since I cant depend on him taking a feeder injected with Baytrill, I have had
to use this method to get the stuff into him.
I just get Squee on my hand as usual, then take my other hand and grab him
from above, making him helpless to run away.
That has worked so far, but I'm thinking he will get wise to this in time.
It actually does not cause him that much stress, and he is totally calm after
I turn loose.
I tried all the methods mentioned here to open his mouth, showing him a mirror, my iPhone, camera, hold the nostrils, pull the skin under the jaw, etc.
Nothing worked except "pissing him off"!!

This morning I noticed he is back under his basking lamp, still dangles his arms, but slowly getting better.
I suspect the Baytrill will have an effect on his apatite though, so that's
another problem I will have to deal with.

Sorry for the long post, but I have learned a few things, and thought I should
share them with the forum.

Don't let stuck shed skin stay on your cham too long before taking a close
look at it.

When adjusting basking temps, be sure to put the probe level with the top spine of your cham, so it will be at right distance from the bulb.
Take into account that when chams puff up, like a pancake, their spine will be
much closer to the basking bulb.

Poor Squee :(
 
Poor Squee. I hope he has a very fast recovery. Keep him well hydrated while on the antibiotic. What did the vet say abou his legs? Has the infection moved into his legs?
 
:( awwww, poor little fellow - I am glad he seems to be doing better for you :) I will keep you both in my thoughts and prayers - :)
 
Poor Squee. I hope he has a very fast recovery. Keep him well hydrated while on the antibiotic. What did the vet say abou his legs? Has the infection moved into his legs?

Thanks Jann, I told the vet about how Squee dangles his arms and legs,
and he inspected them carefully.
I was thinking gout, but he says it's the infection in his body.

Your right, hydration is a concern with Baytrill, and he may not want food either!!
I am prepaired to give him bug juice if I have to.
 
:( awwww, poor little fellow - I am glad he seems to be doing better for you :) I will keep you both in my thoughts and prayers - :)

Thanks little leaf, now that he is back to basking, I hope he will get a little stronger. He is using his arms to grasp stuff and move around, but still
dangles a lot! :(

I wasted a whole dose of Baytill last night by injecting a roach nymph which
he refused to eat!!
 
Good luck with his treatment.
Local infection often spreads around the body with lizards.
You'll want to keep an eye on him for several months after treatment too and get him back to the vet at the first sign of any problem. Sometimes stuff like this appears cleared up and then pops up someplace else months later...
 
Good luck with his treatment.
Local infection often spreads around the body with lizards.
You'll want to keep an eye on him for several months after treatment too and get him back to the vet at the first sign of any problem. Sometimes stuff like this appears cleared up and then pops up someplace else months later...

I know, and they don't show signs of being sick for a long time!

It made me check my other chams for proper temps and stull too.

The ointment stuff gets runny in the heat of the basking lamp, so I need to
sponge him off with warm water before applying more.

When I give him his dose this morning, I think I should get a little water in him
as well, take advantage of his mouth being open.
Tried giving him water an hour ago via pipett, but he refused it.

Don't have enough Baytill to waste with injecting feeders, only to not have him eat it, so it's going to have to be the "pissed off" method!! :(
 
Here are a few pics I just took.
Not dangling his arms in these:
 

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Poor guy, I hope he will recover fast. How old is he? Did his spine look like this before or is it the wound?
 
It made me check my other chams for proper temps and stull too.

If this is from a burn, you might want to consider carefully how you've set up your thermogradients, and not only your basking temperatures.

I don't know if you've noticed but I preach about thermogradients a lot here on the forums because I think they are poorly understood by most hobbyiests, even more advanced hobbyiests, and I think poor thermogradients are nearly always behind burns.

I'll go over the basics again as briefly as I can manage-

Maybe I'm really really really lucky, but it has been my experience at least, that given a good, gradual, thermogradient with lots of options which make the gradient usable by the lizard, lizards won't burn themselves- even if the hottest spot is really really hot.

I'm convinced that lizards use their core temperature to thermoregulate- not their surface temp. Or maybe they use their surface to determine a good spot for basking to warm their core temp at any given moment if one is available, but their core temp determines when they stop basking, not their surface.

So, what this means is that if you have a cool cage with a single branch under your heat light where there is a hot spot- your lizard will sit right on that hot spot and wait to warm its core. Its surface (especially the part nearest the lamp) will warm rapidly, but it will take longer for heat to penetrate to the core of the lizard. So it will sit and burn itself on the surface, while waiting for its core to heat up.

When you provide a gradual gradient with lots of options, this won't happen. Lots of options for a chameleon means lots of branches at varying distances from the heat source(s). Enough that he can find branches a degree or two difference in temperature, and keep going up and down the range of available temperatures by moving a few inches here and there through and along the branches. But not so many that it becomes difficult for the lizard to navigate along them. A situation where a gradual change of temperature occurs, not a dramatic one where it is on the hot spot or off the hot spot.

The reason burns won't happen is because it can then select a temperature that is appropriate, yet still warms its core, and then once warmed, it will maintain that temperature by moving a little bit here or there- slight adjustments throughout the day.

VS- the unnatural on-off thing in an improperly set up thermo-environment where the lizard has to move to the hot spot to warm itself and then off then back again to the hottest spot every time it needs to adjust its core temperature.

That way is unnatural and lizards can't do it without burning unless the temperature is quite low there- IMO too low for optimal use by the lizard- because sometimes they need to be warmer than at other times. If the temp there is 88 degrees or whatever- they can never warm to 95 if their instinct feels the need. And instinct will sooner or later want them to do that.

They know what they are doing given a natural"ish" environment- it is what they are experts at.

Over 20 years with thermogradients with temps in the warmest spot that probably exceed the temperature at your hot spot that burned your lizard, and I've never had a single burn on a chameleon.

Even with semi-montaines- my melleri babies were in 30 gallon reptariums laid on their sides - I think that is a 14" high enclosure that way. 75 watt bulb in a 10" reflector with the reflector resting on the mesh over one end of the enclosure. The reptariums were literally filled with twigs for them to navigate. Not a single burn because they weren't forced and had many many options... Same for countless baby veileds and panthers I've raised.

I think thermogradients are poorly understood- even by many of the more advanced keepers here on the forums from some of the posts I've read about thermostats and dimmers being set on lights to control the temperatures very accurately.

Nature isn't like that. It gives sunlight that is usually too hot for lizards to survive for long directly exposed and then many many thermoregulatory options where many variable temperatures are available as well as the direct sunlight. Full and partial shade offer a wide spectrum of temperature possibilities for a chameleon at any given moment.

Give a true gradient and the lizard will not burn- it will know what to do and how to do it.

It makes things easier for the owner too- as long as the spot is hot enough, you can have variation of 10 or 15 degrees from seasonal changes over the year, and conditions for the lizard will still be correct. The lizard will always be able to find what it needs somewhere in the gradient and it will always avoid the stuff that is too hot at any given moment.

Give the lizard a hot spot instead with a cool background and no or very little thermogradient, and you run risks of a burn because then the situation is unnatural and if things go a little wrong the lizard won't have a way to warm its core without burning its surface. (say a seasonal change like the heat duct near the cage cuts on or the air conditioning cuts on or the temperature in the summer is several degrees warmer than in the winter so the background temperature in the winter drops and the lizard has to sit longer under the heat lamp to maintain temperature, or the opposite- the room warms up and the temperature under the heat lamp warms several degrees and even though the lizard needs less time under the heat lamp now, the temp there is now capable of burning the lizard, yet it sits anyway waiting for core to rise)
 
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Poor guy, I hope he will recover fast. How old is he? Did his spine look like this before or is it the wound?

Thanks, he is 9 months.
No, I could not see that he had scabs because there was a layer of white
shed skin covering it.
 
Flux, your probably right about the core temp thing, and there is a good
temp gradient in his cage, which he always takes advantage of.

I am used to setting up temp gradients from way back when I had leopard
geckos.

I also put tons of branches in their cages so they can perch in the spot where
they like the temp.

Just gave Squee a warm sponge bath and his meds, so he is a bit upset with
me at the moment.
He made a big poop while I was holding him and giving his Baytrill.
I think it was from being excited, it may not have come out on it's own.

I managed to get some water in him as well while I had his mouth open.
 
Oh man, that's terrible news that squee is going through this. I hope he makes a full recovery for you Stan. I know he's in good hands.
 
Oh man, that's terrible news that squee is going through this. I hope he makes a full recovery for you Stan. I know he's in good hands.

Thanks, everyone tells me I'm a good nurse :eek:

I was actually thinking about getting another panther from you in the spring
or early summer, when the weather is nice :)
 
Thanks, everyone tells me I'm a good nurse :eek:



I was actually thinking about getting another panther from you in the spring

or early summer, when the weather is nice :)


I know you love your animals. :) you know I'll take care of you so just lmk when you're ready. A little teaser...I've got my first clutch from acie almost ready to go. These babies are going to be awesome. Maybe a Xmas gift for yourself. ;)
 
After a bad day yesterday, Squee had a good night's sleep, and I saw him this morning walking around on all 4 legs and grasping branches a little more firmly.
That a very good sign.
I will be able to tell if he is any stronger when I take him out to give him his meds :)
The stupid ointment stuff tends to melt under the lamps, so his flanks gleem with oil!!
Need to do daily warm sponge baths.
 
It's getting harder to get Squee to open his mouth for his meds!!
Maybe he is getting wise to this!?

Got his mouth open this morning, didn't have my rubber spatula handy, so
had to stick my finger in to keep him from closing it while putting the Baytrill
in with the other hand (OUCH!! it hurt).

Thought I could give him a roach injected with the med. So I held one in front
of him to see if he would take it, BEFORE injecting it and wasting another
dose.
Well, I injected the roach, held it out for him, and he refused it!! :rolleyes:

Another dose wasted, and the vet didn't give me much, certainly no extra :(

I also managed to get a little water in him. I had 2 syringes loaded and ready.
But only got a little in his mouth.
I can see hydration is going to be a problem while he is on the Baytrill :(

And I have 6 more days in the treatment to go !

I'm not going to inject any more feeders, don't have enough med to risk wasting, so we have to do it the hard way :(
 
I'm so sorry that you and Squee are going through this hard time D8 but I hope that everything will pull through for you especially with your extra love and care <3, my thoughts will be with you ^^
 
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