Snail fail - advice on starting a snail colony

[Andee]

There are species of soil mites that are beneficial but there are who aren't, and I am not just talking about soil mites that are brought with it. What you have to worry about most with snails getting is lung worms. But all sorts of parasitic eggs are able to survive in soil in a dormant stage until they find a new host, I would give you a more extensive list but currently I have yet to have my coffee XD

 

[jamest0o0]

First of all, where does everyone get the room to bake branches, soil, etc lol... My oven couldn't fit my arm in it....

Second of all, snails aside. Are you saying bake all soil? Do you do that for your plants? I was under the impression you are verrry unlikely to see a parasite infect your cham from soil outside of their native habitat. It seems lungworms are a worry if the snails were eating certain animal's feces, I'm not sure how likely it would be that these helix aspersa would have it? Maybe to be safe, I'll seperate the eggs? Sorry I'm just confused and paranoid now because I haven't sterilized any soil, and most people that are adamant about the bioactive set ups don't even believe in sterilizing lol. Are these common problems? I mainly use Scott's topsoil, but I also used worm castings, coir, sand, etc

 

[Andee]

I pasteurize soil, I don't sterilize, it's a huge difference. And I use a bioactive set ups all the time for various animals, but I always pasteurize. I don't believe in buying soil from places that are like.... home depot etc, with out baking. But for plants just in pots, no. That's because my chameleons don't have the ability to eat animals in them. You have species of isopods and various animals large enough to interest your chams, that live in the soil. Always seperate snail eggs have you been feeding them off without separating? They will transfer lung worms to each other unless they are captive raised for human consumption. If they are wild, and you haven't switched eggs they likely have parasites now. Not safe. And lung worms are a pain in the ass treat.

As far as parasites in general, they aren't likely to infect your cham just randomly no, but if they find a new host like an isopod or other insect to infect then it becomes an issue. Plenty of internal parasites can live in the soil until they find a new host. I swear I have explained this to you like twice XD. Intestinal parasites are hard to get rid of as far as erasing them completely, but easy to treat (medicinally) when they become too much of a load, as far as the random strange parasites like the neurological ones, they can not infect a non-host animal usually ever and their host animals are usually very limited.

Intestinal parasites are always in some amount in your chameleons and reptiles, it's just when they get overloaded when it becomes an issue and when they get stressed it's easy for them to become overloaded. Which we know with chams it takes very little to stress them.

 

[Andee]

As far as baking soil I do certain amounts in my oven (I never do a whole bag) spread out on a baking sheet. I don't bake branches. I make sure not have any rotten or diseased looking branches, remove any bark that is too lifted in my opinion, and rinse well with soap and water, finishing with a white vinegar bath another good rinse. If you are going to have bioactives preventive measures need to be taken. People don't make them in my opinion intelligently. They think "animals naturally deal with parasites in the wild" but they get stressed regularly as well, and they usually don't live nearly as long as they do in captivity for numerous reasons. So yeah.

 

[jamest0o0]

I have captive bred snails, I wouldn't feed them from the wild, I meant even as captive bred.. should they be separated from the eggs.

I understand what you're saying with the parasites, but some truly qualified people seem to think otherwise about this matter. I'm not disagreeing with either, I'm just asking questions. I get the whole; Chams carry parasites, it's just when it gets out of control thing. What I'm wondering is how beneficial or necessary it is to bake soil. I like the living things that come along with the soil, but if it's absolutely necessary to kill it all off then so be it.

 

[jamest0o0]

I strongly stand by the bioactive thing, just because it is what nature intended (kinda) and imo adds to the animal's quality of life. I'd like to see examples of people not doing it intelligently though where it had an impact. I really wish I had more time with the bioactive thing under my belt,
because I'd like to see how it plays out in the years to come. It seems our European friends do bio much more often and have great success with it. Maybe someone else can pitch in on this subject.

@Davecameos you're like the only person I know here that's been doing this, any input?

 

[Andee]

pasteurizing like I do, doesn't kill everything, my soil still molds and occasionally springtails still come with it, and certain species of soil mites. I have things that easily sprout in it still. What I do doesn't kill everything, just kills most of the detrimental stuff and though it likely some of the good things in the soil, it's not like those things won't grow back under the right conditions. Bateria etc grows naturally under the right conditions which is what a bioactive is... the soil doesn't make everything, just like a cleaner crew doesn't make it all, it's a huge combo.

From what I understand most people don't even know how to recognize without getting regular fecals when it's a parasite overload. I get regular fecals once a year, but I am also very aware if and when my reptiles have an overload of parasites for some weird reason I am very well aware from just the smell of their feces and the way they act.

I find ignorance being unintelligent, there is not much reason for being ignorant on simple stuff like that anymore, we have the internet, there are probably hundreds of different opinions on the subject if you looks it up, I take a minimum of 5 different articles and then do what sounds what make most sense from possibly multiple places.

 

[jamest0o0]

I get that the soil doesn't make everything, I spent a lot of my childhood working with coral reefs. That's where I learned about bioactivity(just in the water. My issue with baking is that it'd most likely kill off a lot of the fungus, maybe worms, maybe beneficial mites, etc. Sure the bacteria would be there, but itd take time to reestablish.

Thanks for calling me unintelligent, I find that ironic considering there are what 7 types of intelligence and almost everyone excels at at least one of them, yet you are basing intelligence as if it's one thing. The internet says otherwise.... but how many times do we see in this hobbu, 2, 3, 4+ great keepers do different things with the same success. Its not black and white, there are many factors that come into play. A lot of the information we have about these animals isn't even close to being set in stone anyway, how many good studies are there on reptiles, more specifically chameleons? Even with that, many studies could have unknown variables that change everything. I don't see it that ridiculous to want to know the pros vs cons of pasteurizing/sterilizing, because most of what's known is based off keepers that just have a ton of experience and success, so everyone else just follows along(which is great). Sure I can google(which I did) parasites in soil, but there's no way I'm going to find anything concrete about how they would affect chameleons. Hell, for all we know something in soil could help keep parasites at bay. I'm not arguing that you may be wrong, but defending myself from your insinuation that what I did was stupid.

 

[Andee]

I am not calling you stupid sweetie, you did have done a shit ton of research, and you are questioning shit. That doesn't make you stupid or ignorant. It's when people just don't question and shit and follow the herd. The baking doesn't kill off the fungus, and hasn't so far killed off many of the beneficial mites for me. I assume it kills off the adult worms, not sure about the eggs, and it depends on if you are talking about microscopic worms or larger species that would be affected more. Honestly baking at 200 degrees for 90 minutes doesn't make it very warm. Trust me most of my layers (that are only a couple inches thick) still have a ton of moisture in them by the end and are only dry on top.

And there is more than just chameleon and reptiles that are kept on bioactive (that is actually relatively new shit as far bioactive) if you want well documented bioactive stuff, look up invert enclosures, and amphibian enclosures. Amphibian keepers have been keeping them for ages.

In my opinion intelligence isn't based off one thing and learning one type, it's learning multiple types of things, and using multipl types of things, it's going against the flow of thought by doing what works best for you and your individual animals. I never do the same for any enclosure or animal. But I also realize how different each animal is and there's tons of amazing keepers on here who will tell you at their base level chameleons and multiples species are generally the same. When at their base levels I think every animal is different on huge levels. But I have done things that most people wouldn't even dream of, and I have seen huge success with it, it's why I can keep the animals I have as healthy as I do with just their diet changes or less artificial uvb etc. I won't go through the daily things I do, unless you want me to. Most people don't want to know. I am not saying I know all, because I don't. I am constantly learning every second of the day, because I look for things to learn. I try to learn. Otherwise I get bored. Anyway I shall leave this conversation since I seem to be upsetting you and I don't want to... Instead I will bow out gracefully.

 

[jamest0o0]

@Andee you're one of my favorite people here, sorry for getting defensive I kind of took it as you were saying i'm stupid for not doing that. I was freaking out, like oh shit all of my chameleons have dirt in their cages. I had no idea it was a good idea to bake it. Sometimes we take text on the internet out of context easily. I apologize for that, I didn't mean to offend you either I just went on the defensive of why I did what I did unknowingly.

 

[Andee]

No i get it, it's easy to misunderstand thing sometimes. I am going to post what I do specifically for my millipedes (which require pasteurization because of many of the same issues I worry about with feeders even though I don't feed them off) might help you later on ^^. "Things that were originally so helpful in the beginning will come back, they grow under the correct conditions naturally. But it's why most bioactive enclosures are allowed to sit for several months and settle, grow etc. I even do it with my soil mixture for my millipedes. I make a bunch before hand, put it in a huge rubbermaid container and let it kind of sit etc, and then stir it regularly."

This is copy pasted from one of my other forums where I was talking about bioactivity with certain gecko species.

 

[jamest0o0]

Thank you andee!

 

[Andee]

Anytime ^^

 

[Scottsquatch]

I'm glad you two didn't "throw down" LOL

 

[Scottsquatch]

So, I plan to go bioactive on my set ups after I've had the chams for a while and am sure my husbandry is where it needs to be. @Andee it seems you would reccomend I pasteurize some soil beforehand and let it age a bit in a bin while occasionally stirring it. Is that what I should do? @jamest0o0 what is in that sunshine mix anyway? Would pasteurizing it kill off the stuff that you want? Lemme know what you guys think. Thanks.

 

[Andee]

I think letting it age is a good idea, stiring it regularly every few days, and then add some cleaner crew when it looks like it has sit enough. I will take pictures of what my bin looks like after sitting a few days. It has some mold/fungus species I encourage for my enclosures. Though my millipede substrate is definitely different that most bioactive soils in general (just because of the layers and mix I use) it still does the same thing and grows what will be good and necessary because of what I add to it. In my opinion depending on your base soils, that's what will encourage certain specific things to grow. So definitely look at what you want as far as microrganisms etc.