Smaller Females Breeding...

[heloderm]

OK so here's a question. One of my smallest female panthers, my guess around 30grams has begun digging. Let just say she's mature (she was pink). What's the difference between her laying an infertile vs. fertile clutch? I know in the wild that females breed MUCH younger then we practice in captivity. I've seen w.c. florida veiled females come in gravid that are TINY, as well as w.c. panthers. If it's going to take the same toll on them, why not breed them younger? I'm not trying to start any wars on here but these are valid questions. For all I know the little girl could just be digging just to dig. But if she did lay a clutch, it makes me wonder. I look forward to your responses.

John

 

[kylerenz]

Producing and laying a clutch takes a huge toll on a female chameleon. The earlier you breed a female, the harder it is going to be on her. It is much the same reason that you should really only breed your females once a year. They could be bred twice a year, at least for panthers, but in order to give them a good life expectancy it is better to do it once. We as a community wait to breed our chams and to do it in moderation because we care about the life that our animals have as I am sure you do. It is true that they breed young in the wild but that does not mean that it is healthy for them. Just my two cents.

 

[heloderm]

Producing and laying a clutch takes a huge toll on a female chameleon. The earlier you breed a female, the harder it is going to be on her. It is much the same reason that you should really only breed your females once a year. They could be bred twice a year, at least for panthers, but in order to give them a good life expectancy it is better to do it once. We as a community wait to breed our chams and to do it in moderation because we care about the life that our animals have as I am sure you do. It is true that they breed young in the wild but that does not mean that it is healthy for them. Just my two cents.

Just because they produce an infertile clutch doesn't mean that it wouldn't take a toll on them. I wonder how much more work it is to produce fertile eggs, I highly doubt it's much. That's what I'm getting at, why would it make a difference if they are already producing eggs as I know that's mainly what is taking a toll on the animal. If it weren't healthy for them then why would they be producing eggs so young? It appears that is how they were made, to be able to produce at a young age. I don't plan on breeding any younger girls but that doesn't mean I can't ask questions.

John

 

[Warrix642]

It takes a whole lot more nutrients and calcium to make a fertile clutch. She has to use her calcium for the eggs that the young, growing female should be using herself. Think of it as a 13 year old girl being pregonant...she can have a baby BUT it's not good for either of them.

 

[heloderm]

It takes a whole lot more nutrients and calcium to make a fertile clutch. She has to use her calcium for the eggs that the young, growing female should be using herself. Think of it as a 13 year old girl being pregonant...she can have a baby BUT it's not good for either of them.

I understand that a little. BUT a human female wouldn't be producing anything unless impregnated. A chameleon female is going to produce no matter what. I just felt her belly because she hasn't stopped digging and she is surely going to lay some eggs. She is going to use her calcium for the infertile eggs to, I don't see why it would take any more nutrients to lay a fertile clutch vs. unfertile. Turns out I have 3 females between 30 and 40 grams that all have infertile clutches inside them.

John

 

[chameleonneeds]

I agree with you John.

I say when shes finished put her out in the sun a few times a day or whenever you can.
And put alot of calcium on her food now, and afterwards, she will be fine, and give her alot of water too.

My guess of eggs is 22

Good luck with her

 

[Courtney]

Im not an expert....just because a 13 yr old girl gets her period doesnt mean she should get married and pop out a baby.....in the wild they have no choice but to breed there arent any caregivers who can keep them seperated.. in a cage in your cham area a femal can advertise all she wants that shes ready to breed ..doesnt mean its going to happen..or should for that matter..i have a 3 month old pair of veilds living together text book says not to do it i dont recomend it. they get along wonderfully. it may or may not change..either way in the next 2 months depending on how fast she matures they will be seperated. i value her life and will breed her but not this year. I want a 69/69 ratio like Julirs!!!!!!

 

[chameleonneeds]

Im not an expert....just because a 13 yr old girl gets her period doesnt mean she should get married and pop out a baby.....in the wild they have no choice but to breed there arent any caregivers who can keep them seperated.. in a cage in your cham area a femal can advertise all she wants that shes ready to breed ..doesnt mean its going to happen..or should for that matter..i have a 3 month old pair of veilds living together text book says not to do it i dont recomend it. they get along wonderfully. it may or may not change..either way in the next 2 months depending on how fast she matures they will be seperated. i value her life and will breed her but not this year. I want a 69/69 ratio like Julirs!!!!!!

Humans and chameleons are different, chams dont have emotions . . . .

I have heard of people that have kept a pair together from very young and they actualy never bred but always fought, so breeding a pair that have been housed together wont breed as easily.
And remember in the wild the chameleons wont be staying on the same bush, there will be 1 male and alot of females for a good few meters.

So dont say because young girls arent having children that chameleons cant breed.
Its totaly different.

 

[Courtney]

you totally missed the point so i have nothing further to say to your responce. im not being disrespectful in any way but some of the experts or experienced members on here sometimes bypass the point and comment on someone elses relayed experence. i dont recall asking for advice on my situation.

 

[Courtney]

Humans and chameleons are different, chams dont have emotions . . . .

I have heard of people that have kept a pair together from very young and they actualy never bred but always fought, so breeding a pair that have been housed together wont breed as easily.
And remember in the wild the chameleons wont be staying on the same bush, there will be 1 male and alot of females for a good few meters.

So dont say because young girls arent having children that chameleons cant breed.
Its totaly different.

you bypassed giving advice to this person just to comment on my advice. you commented on the actions of wild chams not pet related at all. this person is asking whats wrong with breeding early. you didnt even come close to addressing that. im not saying i did either but i did a heck of alot better than you. as far as the humans are diffeent ...ok chams mature early doesnt mean you should breed early. it may be un healthy or cause an early death for the female...same thing with a 13 yr old girl just cause she is mature in that department doesnt mean her body is actually ready. granted these days its less likely to have a complication in humans its just not right...do you understand my point now?

 

[sandrachameleon]

I prefer to try to avoid them having eggs (infertile or fertile) until they are AT LEAST a year (preferably two years) old, and of an appropriate weight. And yes, I mean with panthers as well as with Veileds.

 

[jannb]

Keeping them cooler and feeding them less will not stop a panther completely from laying eggs (it will stop a veiled) but it will stop them from laying as often and make them have a smaller clutchs which is much better on the female. An infertile clutch is easier on the female that a fertile clutch. The eggs are smaller and they draw allot less calcium from the female. When the female is under a year old her body still needs the calcium that the eggs are taking away from her. The more clutches the females has the shorter life span she will have. In the wild many females do not recover after laying a clutch.

 

[Fidel]

What proof is there that fertile eggs use more calcium and "nutrients", as opposed to infertile ones, other than speculation?

 

[pssh]

Instead of thinking about what happens in the wild, think about in captivity. Yes, she can breed, but it shortens their lives considerably to be bred at a young age and often. If you value them as pets and not just a breeding project then you wouldn't breed the females until they are at least a year old and only once a year or so. It's the same with any species, the younger they are when they have babies and the more the produce ends up taking away from their bodies and causing problems/early death.

And although girls dont just go popping out dead babies like chameleons do unfertile eggs doesn't mean that we dont produce eggs. We do every month, and it takes a toll on our bodies. Girls have been maturing faster and faster and the younger a girl is when she matures the worse it is for her. The hormones cause all these feelings and changes to happen and it makes girls feel mature when they are only mature physically and not mentally. Young mature girls in this day and age aren't ready for the responsibility that comes with maturity no matter how much anyone argues agaist it. That's why the age that girls have sex is going down and the percent of teen pregnancy is going up. So think of breeding in chameleons as maturing for girls. We should be more worried about what it does for the girls health instead of when she can go poping out the next baby.

 

[Courtney]

Instead of thinking about what happens in the wild, think about in captivity. Yes, she can breed, but it shortens their lives considerably to be bred at a young age and often. If you value them as pets and not just a breeding project then you wouldn't breed the females until they are at least a year old and only once a year or so. It's the same with any species, the younger they are when they have babies and the more the produce ends up taking away from their bodies and causing problems/early death.

And although girls dont just go popping out dead babies like chameleons do unfertile eggs doesn't mean that we dont produce eggs. We do every month, and it takes a toll on our bodies. Girls have been maturing faster and faster and the younger a girl is when she matures the worse it is for her. The hormones cause all these feelings and changes to happen and it makes girls feel mature when they are only mature physically and not mentally. Young mature girls in this day and age aren't ready for the responsibility that comes with maturity no matter how much anyone argues agaist it. That's why the age that girls have sex is going down and the percent of teen pregnancy is going up. So think of breeding in chameleons as maturing for girls. We should be more worried about what it does for the girls health instead of when she can go poping out the next baby.

im so glad you got the point i was in a hurry to make. and coming from a young girl it says a whole lot!!!!!!!!

 

[heloderm]

Ok, I think I got it. If anyone else replies try and stay on point, I knew this was going to be a touchy subject but I wanted to ask the questions so that I understand. I don't plan on breeding the young females but when the one little girl began digging I couldn't help but to wonder.

Thanks,

John

 

[pssh]

Just fixing some misconceptions. I think that's what most should compare breeding early to. It can be done, and has been, but it's usually best for the chameleon to wait. I hope all goes well and she's perfectly healthy after she lays.

 

[mwebb]

They will lay eggs mated or not. A egg is a egg. Thats what they do. I have females that have have laid eggs at 7 months and do just fine and are still laying. Just ask warrix642 his female that just laid 40 came from me and is out stading.

 

[Julirs]

OK-Food for thought. I have NEVER had a female Panther lay eggs prior to being bred. Two of my female Panthers are 2 years old and have never laid infertile or fertile.

 

[nightcrawler]

I think that the reason they breed in the wild so young is because they have no choice really. Chances are they will run into a male, and as some said before seeing a male will trigger the cycle, and will make them become able to produce eggs sooner then not seeing one. (although I would really like to see scientific evidence of this.) In captivity they get a choice dependent on the keeper. If the keeper chooses to breed them, or introduce them to a male. So some females might not even see a male until they are one year old when they naturally will produce eggs (I believe). As we know eggs take a toll on an animals body. So as chameleon lovers, we want our chams to live as long of a life as they can, so we can enjoy their company as much as possible. So that is why everyone does not want to breed their cham at a young age. But that is my interpretation.