Sleeping during the day

[zlew]

Your Chameleon - Ambanja Panther Chameleon, 3 1/2 months old. Probably an inch not including the tail. I have had him since July 13th.
Handling - minimal
Feeding - crickets. eats less than the recommended amount.
Supplements - rept.ocal calcium powder with d3 once a week. Calcium powder without d3 on the other days
Watering - I mist him twice a day, enough to soak all the plants in his cage. I have seen him drink.
Fecal Description - normal, went to the vet on monday and came back negative for parasites, and looked completely healthy.
History - He has a history of not eating enough, no matter what i do.

Cage Info:
Cage Type - National Geographic Reptile Sanctuary, 16x16x24, glass with screen top and a side strip of mesh for vent. Vertical.
Lighting - 13w UVB Bulb, exo-terra, and a reptispot 100w basking bulb.
Temperature - Near the bulb it gets up to about 93, the rest of the cage is around 75, towards the bottom down to 70. Measured with infrared therm.
Humidity - I dont really measure humidity, because whenever I mist, the hygrometer just goes up to 99% when i get water on it. Normally though, (during the dry out periods) its around 60%
Plants - Are you using live plants? If so, what kind?
Position- On top of a nightstand, away from the door in my bedroom. Relatively low traffic, no vents or anything.
Location - NY
Current Problem-Sleeping near the end of the day but before his lights go off, shower darker stressed colors, and eating little. I have added some plants to his cage, which i guess could contribute to stress, and also, the vet on monday was probably traumatic cuz they had to force open his mouth and they had to be a little rough because he wouldnt sit still or open his mouth. After the vet, he ate, and then slept for the rest of the day. I called and they said it was probably due to the stress from the vet. I havent handled him since, but he has also eaten a little less than normal this week (yesterday he ate about 15, today he ate none, and before he was eating 4-5). Every day this week about an hour before lights out he goes to sleep. Again, the vet said he was totally healthy. Is all this because he is recovering from stress from his trip to the vet? Also, he hasnt shed since I got him, or shown any sign of shedding. Is it possible that this is him beginning to shed? how can i tell if he is shedding? he hasnt shown any pathces or anything.
Thanks,
Zach

 

[xephyr17]

It could be because of the stressful trip to the vet. I would keep a close eye to see if anything else starts up. But sometimes a cham that's moving to a new space will sleep earlier than normal because it's stressed out and needs extra rest.

 

[jannb]

Welcome to the forums. I have a few changes I'd like to recommend. I believe you are keeping him to hot. I keep babies basking spot in the low 80's. I have never used a 100 watt bulb not even on my adults in their free ranges. A glass enclosure would really heat up fast that along with the ventilation is why I normally recommend screen. If they get to hot they want eat. I'm also not familiar with your UVB light. Too much UV can cause them to close their eyes.

What size crickets are you feeding? How are you gutloading the feeders? He needs a variety of well gutloaded feeders of the appropriate size. You will also need a multiple vitamin twice a month.

Live plants are good. The leaves give them plenty of drinking spots and help to keep up the humidity. If they get dehydrated they want eat.

I would change his his husbandry and try that before another trip to the vet.

My blog for new keepers is attached below.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/blo...-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html

 

[zlew]

hi, a low 80s was too cold for him, and he would spend all his time up there. my house is 66 degrees, so it is a little cold outside the tank. the cage does have some screen placed specifically for optimal ventilation. My vet told me that my husbandry looked great, but that i needed it a little warmer. (i dont mean to be contradictory, im just trying to figure out what information to place my full trust in, because there are so many sources.) It is also a temporary home until he gets bigger. I am feeding him crickets, which are fed flukers cricket diet orange cubes.
he gets the occasional superworm as well.

 

[Kath44]

The orange cubes are pretty useless I believe. Have a look at sandrachameleon blogs about gut loading. Fresh fruit n veg is better.
I'd trust jannbs advice fully.
Kath.

 

[Decadancin]

As for the question of sleeping before it gets dark outside, I wouldn't be concerned as long as he is awake and active during the rest of the day. My boy will find his spot to spend the night around 5pm and it doesn't get dark until well after 7:30. He shuts his eyes once he feels comfortable (usually by 6:30).

Generally when they are getting ready to shed you will see a bit of an opaque color to the skin (less vivid colors). They may be a bit irritable and with young ones usually the process is over within 1 day.

 

[Lazy Boy]

Low 80s are to cold for him? Did you check his fecal and make sure he was digesting or do you come up with this cuz he would bask under the light most of the day? Its a fine balance of heating and not dehydrating a youngster. Mine is 16 weeks or 4 months tomorrow and my basking temps are 84-85 he dose bask (turn dark and stay under his light) but that's how they digest. Two misting a day sounds a little on the dry side (I misted my cham 6 times for about 2 mins each time with my mist king) what's you RH in the house compared to his cage.

 

[Lovereps]

Sorry your cham is being having a problem.
Obviously, you are a caring and responsible cham keeper, since you both took him to the vet and have sought the advice of experienced cham keepers.
Kudos to you for your diligence.
Obviously, something is bothering him and it may be a series of rather minor changes which lead to him being "happy" and hungrier.

There are a few things that I've noticed that would be better if changed to suit his needs and some things to check and change, if needed.
Now that the vet has given him a clean bill of health, the next thing to check, is that his environment is meeting all of his physical and psychological needs.

Babies do need cooler temps than adults and chameleons generally speaking they will enjoy basking beneath their heat lamps.
Panthers under 6 months benefit from ambient temps of 72-80 with a basking temp around 82.
Adult male Panthers do well with ambient 75-80F and basking temps of 85-90 degrees.
The accuracy of an infrared thermometer varies with the distance from the point being measured.
You mentioned using a 13watt ExoTerra bulb but didn't specify which one.
If it's the UVB150, then it is fat too much intensely concentrated UV for him That is known to cause eye troubles, which make it difficult to find and catch his food.
Typically, babies are kept under already used and weaker UV bulbs than older chams are.

Humidity is also an important part of keeping him well hydrated.
Too dry an environment will lead to chronic low level (or worse) dehydration, which makes a cham feel unwell and can cause kidney troubles if left uncorrected.
Longer mistings stimulate a cham to drink enough to meet his body's needs.
Dehydration also causes lack of appetite and sleepiness/lethargy.
I would take the humidity probe out or cover it during the misting so that you can get accurate readings after the misting is over.
A saturated humidity probe may be reading much higher, hours later, than the actual humidity level.
One indicator of proper hydration is when the urates are snowy white.
Pink or orange urates indicate the need for more frequent and/or longer mistings.

Does he have plenty of foliage to hide amongst?
Does he have horizontal branches or vines to stand on?
Are there other pets nearby whom he can see and which may be making him unsettled?
Is he next to a mirror, where he will be afraid of his reflection?
Do his lights stay on for 12 hours, followed by 12 hours of total darkness?
(Those nighttime red bulbs are bad for chameleons, who can see red and won't sleep while they're on.)

Not eating enough can be the result of boredom with his food, since he is offered the same food every day.
He should receive a variety of well-nourished feeders, rather than crickets alone.
That they're small enough to be easily consumed is important, too.
Feeding the feeders nutritious foods ensures that they offer the most nutrients that they can for your cham.
Unfortunately, the commercial feeder diets are typically inadequate.
Good feeding info is here: https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/food/
Crickets are fine as a regular feeder but they should not be his entire diet.
Silkworms and Phoenix worms would be nice additions to his diet and at his present size, he might even still enjoy some Flightless Hydei Fruit Flies.
As he grows you can add other feeders like Blue Bottle flies, Dubias and Hornworms (captive raised only--outdoor worms are poisonous from the tomato plants they eat) .

For supplements,the calcium without D3 is fine, but calcium with D3 should be 1x every 2 weeks.
He also should have feeders dusted 2x each month with a good multivitamin, such as Reptivite or Herptivite.
Just make sure it doesn't contain D3, since you already have D3 in the 2x a month calcium.
Shedding is often very fast in very young chams. They can start and finish within the day.
At his size, it is probably not very easy to see any skin changes beforehand that are associated with shedding.
Once he starts, he will have dry patches of white skin flaking off from everywhere--even the eyelids!
He will likely be rubbing his body against branches.

These are just the things that drew my attention and I hope that you find my comments helpful.
You should find him hungrier and more active after some tweaks have been made.
Going to his sleeping spot an hour before lights out (lights should be timer-controlled.) is normal behavior.
Sleeping or resting with closed eyes anytime during the day is not normal.

For much more info, please read this excellent caresheet, written by very experienced chamkeepers.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/caresheets/panther/

 

[zlew]

Low 80s are to cold for him? Did you check his fecal and make sure he was digesting or do you come up with this cuz he would bask under the light most of the day? Its a fine balance of heating and not dehydrating a youngster. Mine is 16 weeks or 4 months tomorrow and my basking temps are 84-85 he dose bask (turn dark and stay under his light) but that's how they digest. Two misting a day sounds a little on the dry side (I misted my cham 6 times for about 2 mins each time with my mist king) what's you RH in the house compared to his cage.

Well, im saying this because of 2 things--my vet said that it depends on the chameleon and that it sounded like he could use some extra heat. Second, i noticed an increse of his appetite when i made it warmer, although i lowered it back down to the 75w bulb. I will try to keep him more hydrated as well, although his bowel movements look totally normal.

 

[zlew]

Sorry your cham is being having a problem.
Obviously, you are a caring and responsible cham keeper, since you both took him to the vet and have sought the advice of experienced cham keepers.
Kudos to you for your diligence.
Obviously, something is bothering him and it may be a series of rather minor changes which lead to him being "happy" and hungrier.

There are a few things that I've noticed that would be better if changed to suit his needs and some things to check and change, if needed.
Now that the vet has given him a clean bill of health, the next thing to check, is that his environment is meeting all of his physical and psychological needs.

Babies do need cooler temps than adults and chameleons generally speaking they will enjoy basking beneath their heat lamps.
Panthers under 6 months benefit from ambient temps of 72-80 with a basking temp around 82.
Adult male Panthers do well with ambient 75-80F and basking temps of 85-90 degrees.
The accuracy of an infrared thermometer varies with the distance from the point being measured.
You mentioned using a 13watt ExoTerra bulb but didn't specify which one.
If it's the UVB150, then it is fat too much intensely concentrated UV for him That is known to cause eye troubles, which make it difficult to find and catch his food.
Typically, babies are kept under already used and weaker UV bulbs than older chams are.

Humidity is also an important part of keeping him well hydrated.
Too dry an environment will lead to chronic low level (or worse) dehydration, which makes a cham feel unwell and can cause kidney troubles if left uncorrected.
Longer mistings stimulate a cham to drink enough to meet his body's needs.
Dehydration also causes lack of appetite and sleepiness/lethargy.
I would take the humidity probe out or cover it during the misting so that you can get accurate readings after the misting is over.
A saturated humidity probe may be reading much higher, hours later, than the actual humidity level.
One indicator of proper hydration is when the urates are snowy white.
Pink or orange urates indicate the need for more frequent and/or longer mistings.

Does he have plenty of foliage to hide amongst?
Does he have horizontal branches or vines to stand on?
Are there other pets nearby whom he can see and which may be making him unsettled?
Is he next to a mirror, where he will be afraid of his reflection?
Do his lights stay on for 12 hours, followed by 12 hours of total darkness?
(Those nighttime red bulbs are bad for chameleons, who can see red and won't sleep while they're on.)

Not eating enough can be the result of boredom with his food, since he is offered the same food every day.
He should receive a variety of well-nourished feeders, rather than crickets alone.
That they're small enough to be easily consumed is important, too.
Feeding the feeders nutritious foods ensures that they offer the most nutrients that they can for your cham.
Unfortunately, the commercial feeder diets are typically inadequate.
Good feeding info is here: https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/food/
Crickets are fine as a regular feeder but they should not be his entire diet.
Silkworms and Phoenix worms would be nice additions to his diet and at his present size, he might even still enjoy some Flightless Hydei Fruit Flies.
As he grows you can add other feeders like Blue Bottle flies, Dubias and Hornworms (captive raised only--outdoor worms are poisonous from the tomato plants they eat) .

For supplements,the calcium without D3 is fine, but calcium with D3 should be 1x every 2 weeks.
He also should have feeders dusted 2x each month with a good multivitamin, such as Reptivite or Herptivite.
Just make sure it doesn't contain D3, since you already have D3 in the 2x a month calcium.
Shedding is often very fast in very young chams. They can start and finish within the day.
At his size, it is probably not very easy to see any skin changes beforehand that are associated with shedding.
Once he starts, he will have dry patches of white skin flaking off from everywhere--even the eyelids!
He will likely be rubbing his body against branches.

These are just the things that drew my attention and I hope that you find my comments helpful.
You should find him hungrier and more active after some tweaks have been made.
Going to his sleeping spot an hour before lights out (lights should be timer-controlled.) is normal behavior.
Sleeping or resting with closed eyes anytime during the day is not normal.

For much more info, please read this excellent caresheet, written by very experienced chamkeepers.
https://www.chameleonforums.com/care/caresheets/panther/

It is the UVB100, but i ordered a reptiglo 5.0 tube which will be coming on thursday to replace it.
He does seem to be hydrated, his urates are nice and white and I have sneaked up on him drinking a few times, although he stops as soon as he sees me!
He has tons of foliage and vines, and two horizontal fake bamboo going across that are wrapped in vines, fake plants, and leaves. No othjer pets in my bedroom, and the lights are on a timer with no red light or anything. The only thing is, I do have a small reading lamp across the room that i use, but it doesnt seem to bother him sleeping, and it does go off for most of the night. If you think this might be a problem, I can start using a tablet with lowered backlight to read and keep that light off. As for the reflection, it's slightly possible he is seeing it in the glass part of his cage, but he has no aversion to it and does not appear to be stressed.
I will add some more variety, and properly gutload, and fix my supplementation.
Lastly, with shedding, wouldn't I still see the shed skin on the bottom of the tank? honestly, I have seen no sign of shedding whatsoever.

Thank you so much for your help, I appreciate it more than you can imagine, I love my little Oliver Queen. I'm glad you think Im doing a good job, and I hope this issue gets resolved quickly.
Thanks,
Zach
P.S. Sorry it took so long to respond.

 

[zlew]

Here is the setup

 

[Lovereps]

It's clean and looks like there's plenty of foliage and he has some good basking branches. Overall a nice looking setup.

I think that once you get temps and humidity in the right ranges and add some variety to his diet, he will feel well enough to resume eating.
In the wild they are consuming an ever-changing array of insects.
Food boredom also results in hunger strikes.

I understand your difficulty in knowing whether to trust the advice of a veterinarian or the advice of cham keepers and breeders.
What you may not realize is that little time is dedicated to reptile medicine in vet school, because reptiles comprise only a small part of business, if any, in the average veterinary practice.
I have quite a number of chams and periodically a problem will arise that needs medical treatment.
The vet my chams see is quite experienced with reptile medicine.
I trust my chams' vet to diagnose and treat medical problems when they arise but in all honesty, I trust the wisdom of very experienced cham keepers and cham breeders for advice on cham care.
Although levels of cham knowledge vary from newcomer to expert on the forum, you can get a sense of whose advice is "solid".
Jannb, for example is very experienced with chams and her blog is based on experience. It can be found here https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/jannb/325-info-new-keepers-young-veiled-panther-chameleons.html

There are simply too many different species of reptiles for him to know it all.

 

[Djturna4thakidz]

I too would follow Jannb's advice. Like previously stated, you want your basking temp at 85 degrees for now.