Significance of keeping lines clean?

[chameleonneeds]

Hey all. Well I have been thinking for a few months on writing an article which will be published in an exotic reptile and pet magazine here in south africa, the article being about the significance of keeping panther cham bloodlines clean. I hear a lot of people saying "a panther is a panther" so I can see people mix breeding the locales as they please. And I would like to emphasize the importance of keeping things profesional with the breeding of the panthers to keep the future of the panther market good and clean. I dont know how its so well done in america though? So I basicly know my mission with this, Im going to start working with roughs for it tomorrow with the ideas I already have but I would like you guys if you have opinions on what I should include in the article. I will also be putting pics in so I was wondering if anyone wanted to email me pics of your panthers, Im looking for a pic of a female ambilobe, and ankaramy, aswell as a few ambilobe males that look totaly different colour wise, an ankaramy male and a male ambanja. I will post pics to show the difference of what the real ambanja panthers are, compared to what the people in S.A are used to seeing as ambanja which is the ambilobe x nosybe mix, that is to make sure when new pure ambanjas come in they are not mixed. I hope you guys know what Im trying to say here, and your opinions will be appreciated. Kind regards - Tyrone Holmes

 

[sandrachameleon]

You might find some of the discussion in these previous threads of interest:

https://www.chameleonforums.com/panther-hybrids-329/

https://www.chameleonforums.com/crossbreeding-25079/

https://www.chameleonforums.com/cross-breeding-40955

https://www.chameleonforums.com/cross-breeding-panthers-31504/

https://www.chameleonforums.com/why-not-breed-ambilobe-ambanja-7124/

https://www.chameleonforums.com/why-only-certain-cross-breeds-40508/#post378125


You are welcome to use this photo of a female Ambilobe
https://www.chameleonforums.com/mem...-s-chameleons-picture6651-amelia-may-2010.jpg

This photo of a pure male Ambilobe
https://www.chameleonforums.com/mem...normal-colouration-male-panther-ambilobe.html

and this photo of a Ambilobe Nosy Be cross
https://www.chameleonforums.com/mem...ameleons-picture4663-gimlie-october-2009.html

 

[Paul R]

In my opinion, and living in RSA: a panther is a panther is a panther is a panther is a panther............

Our panthers were smuggled from the UK as Ambanja, dont know if they can be 100% classified as a mix of nosy be and ambilobe......

I got a new panther male, cobalt blue in colour and will breed it with my Ambanja females....

 

[chameleonneeds]

Thanks for those links! To be honest paul, saying a panther is a panther is like saying an ostrich is a hummingbird just because they are both birds. I have 2 pics of that "cobalt" blue male. It looks like a juvenile maybe 5 months, and its to bad I deleted the pic of the male I had when he was around 5 months, he was so blue that he makes your cobalt male look green. Judging on the many pics of different ambanjas Ive seen it is pretty safe to say that the ambanjas we have are not really ambanja its a sad truth but it is the truth. Everyone loves a male panther even if it is a cross, but what about the many people wanting pure bloodlines? Selling young panthers as a different locale to what they are is very wrong.

 

[Paul R]

Im not saying im going to sell my panthers as ambanja, i sell them as "PANTHER" cause thats what they are, just panthers. Trying to classify them is rather useless in this country cause everything is smuggled in anyway.

I bought a few more juveniles panthers this morning and i bought them as "panther", i really dont care what locale they are.

When i sell my chameleons, people ask for panther and thats what they get....

 

[sandrachameleon]

Thanks for those links! To be honest paul, saying a panther is a panther is like saying an ostrich is a hummingbird just because they are both birds.

I dont agree.

All panther chameleons are in the same family (chamaeleonidae) and the same Genus (Furcifer) and so far are also classed in the same species (paradalis). Veiled chameleons are also in the Chamaeleonidae family (chamaeleonidae), but different Genus (Chamaeleo).

Whereas Ostrich and humingbird arent even the same family. Ostrich is Struthionidae and hummingbird is Trochilidae.

If you want an animal of a pure local, source it from a reputable breeder and pay the price for knowing what it is and being assured of its lineage. If you just want any old mixed up panther, then so be it.

 

[eisentrauti]

If you want an animal of a pure local, source it from a reputable breeder and pay the price for knowing what it is and being assured of its lineage. If you just want any old mixed up panther, then so be it.

This is impossible in South Africa. But I still wonder why they can't be satiesfied with their gorgeous Bradypodion variety. It's typical human, you prefer always the things you can't get easily

 

[chameleonneeds]

Sandra, I knew someone might say that but totaly off the point, Im sure you know that. And yes like I stated A LOT on this forum there are no reputable breeders in south africa of any chameleons in S.A. Ben it is not everyone that only keeps exotics, I find that more people along the coasts keep bradypodions probably because they are easier to get hold of there.

 

[sandrachameleon]

there are no reputable breeders in south africa of any chameleons in S.A.

Sounds like a business opportunity

or maybe not. There are native chameleons and lots of other great lizards in SA, so maybe less market for higher priced panthers.

You could try to import, if pure local is important to you

 

[Paul R]

Benny the only reason i dont have Bradypodion is because they are illegal and the law is EXTREMELY strict. Other than that i can catch hundreds of Bradypodion but the law is too scarey, fines and possible imprissonment

 

[chameleonneeds]

Sandra. It is a good business oppurtunity if you can get the chams, I will have some new species not regularly seen on the market in S.A, if all goes well. Importing is very hard work, yesterday I was on the phone with an importer and he said Im welcome to use his quarantine station, but if I add the costs of permits for everything I need, and I need to pay for the 30 day quarantine then the WC chams 5 dollar price tag suddenly adds to around 400 dollars each. To do a good import you need around 8000 dollars, anything less and your waisting your time. That comes from the mouth of an importer by the way, not me. There is a huge demand for panthers in S.A, more so for new locales. There are some new pure locales going around now adays, that will fetch a price of about 600 dollars a baby.

 

[MrCus]

But I still wonder why they can't be satiesfied with their gorgeous Bradypodion variety. It's typical human, you prefer always the things you can't get easily

For the same reason why you keep chameleons instead of "our" German tauts or salamanders
Its legal to get wildcaught Chameleons but illigal to catch wildliving reptiles or amphibians from our own country. (And even if you could get a legal Bufo bufo, you would prefer a Chameleon I guess...)

 

[eisentrauti]

For the same reason why you keep chameleons instead of "our" German tauts or salamanders
Its legal to get wildcaught Chameleons but illigal to catch wildliving reptiles or amphibians from our own country. (And even if you could get a legal Bufo bufo, you would prefer a Chameleon I guess...)

I still keep various caudatas, Marcus But I would always prefer a chameleon instead of a Bufo bufo bufo

 

[leo]

I think the point is to help Tyrone show why it's important to keep panther lines "clean" sort off say. I personally have seen ambanjas and nosybes that look completely the same. I've also seen some other locales which are said to be more rare look like a mix of ambilobes and other locales. Since there's no way to tell 100% the locale of a panther chameleon, I sometimes consider those "rare" locales a way to cheat people.
I know there are different traits that make a difference between a nosybe and tamtave ect. But I think that we've put way too much emphasis on what a specific locale must look like, when there is not a scientific or accurate method to determine the difference between a same species.

 

[Ace]

sort of an old thread "Leo"...but i know some one will explain this to me but how about the different breeds of dogs..arent they the same species but different breeds (granted these are mammals and not reptiles) but i dont think it woul b easy for a great dane to mate with a chihuaua

 

[leo]

sort of an old thread "Leo"...but i know some one will explain this to me but how about the different breeds of dogs..arent they the same species but different breeds (granted these are mammals and not reptiles) but i dont think it woul b easy for a great dane to mate with a chihuaua

jaja I know. I was searching the forums and found this which called my attention. I don't think the discussion got to where it has suppossed to get so I thought I could bring it back up
About the dogs, I think it's completely different because panthers only (IMO) only vary on "colors" and not traits as significant as dogs, for example size. I personally dont think panthers are locales are categorized as breeds like in dogs. Therefore, it is not as a significant change of traits IMO.

Ace thanks for the ad by the way

 

[Julirs]

If you want an animal of a pure local, source it from a reputable breeder and pay the price for knowing what it is and being assured of its lineage. If you just want any old mixed up panther, then so be it.

The problem is and will be more so in the future that people will continue to misrepresent to make a quick buck. This will continue to muddy the lines. I purchased a female from a reputable breeder that turned out to not be pure. It happens, and will happen more and more the more people breed mixed locales.

And, I throw up in my mouth every time I see these designer dogs being bred and sold for big $$$.

 

[chameleonneeds]

Good pint leo.

My ambanja looks a lot different from most in the U.S but doesnt mean it cant be an ambanja, maybe the whole colour of the amabanjas are just so different from others is because of the inbreeding...which wont be happening with my panthers, I have the oppurtunity to breed my females with unrelated ambanja males.

 

[nicholas]

And, I throw up in my mouth every time I see these designer dogs being bred and sold for big $$$.

How could you possibly throw up at the sight of my little boy??
He may be a designer dog but he needs a home too!