Sick Pygmy Rh Spectrum

[sperpich]

Chameleon Info:
Pygmy Rh Spectrum, female, 1 month in my care
Handled once every 2 weeks to inspect
Feeding crickets so far, 8 in enclosure with 2 of them every other day. gut loading at least 24 hours
Rep-cal Herpavite & Calcium with Vit.D. Use one of those with every feeding, but rotate between the two
Watering is spraying 2-3 times per day, no don't see her drinking
Hard to say on droppings with the two in the cage, haven't noticed anything off though.

Cage Info:
Screened 16x16x20 cage
Repti-Sun 5UVB 18" bulb. On from 8am to 8pm
Temps are 69-70 at the bottom of the cage measured with temp/humidity digital gauge
Humidity 50-80%, kept up by manual misting
Live umbrella tree, pothos, but they don't eat them
Cage is on top of computer desk in an office. Low traffic and no vents or fans. Top of cage is 7 feet off floor.
Live in Wisconsin


She has been lethargic and sleeping during the day. She is laying on the bottom of the cage, which she usually likes, but not laying down. Since there are 2 in the cage its hard to say what she has been eating, but her cage mate doesn't look like he has been eating more than his share. She doesn't look dehydrated..her eyes aren't sunken in, but they are dark in color. Her cage mate is healthy and acting normal. I will post a picture as soon as I can. We tried to give her water with a syringe, but she wanted nothing to do with it. We are looking for a local vet. The one we've used before told us to feed our pygmy baby food for an eye problem and was a horrible experience.

 

[Hoj]

am i correct in seeing that u are useing rep-cal calcium w/d3 on one day and then rep-cal herptvite the next and repeating that.
i dont keep pygmy chams but that supplimenting schedual is WAY to strong for any cham i can think of
i think other pygmy keepers will chime in soon
i dont use rep-cal at all anymore as it is just to strong

 

[sperpich]

Oh no - yes I am doing it with every feeding, but they are only getting fed every other day. So for example Monday they would get the calcium and then when they are fed again on Wednesday I would use the vitamin. I have been following that same schedule with a rh temporalis as well as our carpet chameleon. They are all juveniles yet. I was kind of going off this (supplement section):
http://www.flchams.com/pygmy-chameleon-care-sheet.asp
But it looks like I am over doing it by that. I am also only feeding every other day so I think that confused me too. What is recommended? Could over doing the supplements cause her to be sick like she is?

 

[Hoj]

i dont know for sure if would cause your problems but i would think it is very possible.
as far as repcal goes, most keepers
use plain calcium NO D3 at most feedings,
calcium with D3 twice a month
and herptivite twice a month
keep in mind the above sched, is mostly for panthers and veileds, for a pygmy i would think it would be even less, as i know my montanes are supplimented way less than my others.
im sorry i dont know more about pygmy chams

 

[sperpich]

Thanks for the info Hoj, no reason to apologize! I'll wait to see if anyone else replies and I'll also get a picture today.

 

[sperpich]

Got a picture of her this morning. She looks like she feels miserable Would it be good to avoid getting her wet when I spray while she is sick?

 

[sperpich]

For comparison here is her cage mate. He wasn't so easy to photograph and he was wet because I just sprayed, but he's there in his spunky look.

 

[laurie]

Did you get my pm with links and someone to talk with? I will find more people who have those chams if you need me to. Your female looks gravid to me, just cause she is so round. But again i know nothing about Spectrum.

 

[sperpich]

I missed that PM, but found it now - thanks. I was a little confused and replied to it. She does look round, but I think her tank mate who is a male is equally round, but these guys are new to me as well so I'm not sure either. I'm really confused as to what is wrong with her. She's not looking around the ground for a spot to lay...just sleeping down there.

 

[Txherp]

You should get a fecal done asap. I assume that she is wild caught and under stress so parasites might be the problem. I would also take her cage mate out while she is sick, he is probably stressing her out as well.

 

[sperpich]

Thanks for the reply Txherp! She is supposed to be captive bred. I got her from:
http://www.bigappleherp.com/Pygmy-Leaf-Chameleons-Captive-Bred-Babies?sc=27&category=13667
Its weird how they sell them as Pygmy without mentioning which species. I've ordered twice and gotten different species. Anyway, unrelated to this issue.

Good advise on her cage mate and the fecal. I'll get on that right now. That will be a good way for me to "test" some new vets since I don't have high hopes in this area.

 

[sperpich]

Well she sure isn't looking good. I took her out and put her in a little enclosure for herself. She walked briefly on my hand in the process, but then went back to sleep on my hand yet. I tried to give her water with a syringe, but she didn't respond. I put a container with dirt in her new enclosure in case she is egg bound, but she's had potted plants in her enclosure all along. I'm not sure she is going to make it much longer. I'll collect a fecal sample as soon as possible. I held her up to the light to see through her and could only tell there was dark matter in her stomach area, the rest was see-through. Didn't seem like eggs, but who knows.

 

[sperpich]

I called around to a few vets I haven't been to yet. Just as I was afraid none of them were great. I asked them to be honest if they actually see a lot of chams or even pygmy chams and have experience and the best answer I got was "yeah we see a bunch, but honestly by the time we see them they are too far gone." I think I am in that same boat. I asked if they would look at a fecal sample if I brought it in and got answers like "Sure we could examine it, but without a full exam we couldn't give you any information." Really?! I'm pretty sure she wouldn't handle the stress of a vet visit at this point.

 

[kinyonga]

She doesn't look good to me...and she looks very gravid. She may be too weak to lay the eggs and thus too weak for spaying to save her too. I don't know if she could be given oxytocin to get her to lay them or not....she's small so I don't know if they could inject her...you'll have to ask a vet. The other "problem" is that if she's been needing to lay them for a while, they may have grown too big for her to lay. I wish I could give you some better news.

 

[sperpich]

Thanks for the response and info! She did look pretty dehydrated so I gave her regularly sprays for a while (no shower since she is so small). Towards the end she stood up and drank a few drops and has been standing up ever since. That seems like a small improvement. I guess we'll see how she does through the night at this point.

 

[ColombianUnit]

this is a interesting topic and after reading it i thought of something they gel hornworm food mix is used as gut load not only for hornworms but crickets and butter worms too how about adding calcium and multi vitamin and a light dusting twice a week and d3 once every other week any thoughts

 

[ferretinmyshoes]

How is she doing today? Still around? Unfortunately with these little guys it is almost impossible to do anything to help them once they start going downhill because they are just so small. As you're finding out vets often get the gasping chameleon because that's the only time people bring a reptile in, so experience is hard to come by. Plus with her tiny size they honestly would not be able to do anything. She's way too small for anyone but an ophthalmic surgeon with their microscopic tools to do anything, and losing just a drop or two of blood during surgery will kill her since they are so small. And any drugs given would be an overdose because of her size. Even an x-ray to see if she had eggs wouldn't work unless they had a premium machine, and I don't even know then if it would. I think you would be wasting your time going to a vet (and I do not make that suggestion lightly) just because she's so small and then you will be upset that they couldn't do anything. With a bigger species that actually registers a weight on a gram scale then sure, there are lots of treatments a vet can do, but here size is a limiting factor.

A fecal would be a good idea, although I don't know if anyone has successfully dewormed a pyg...but take the healthy one for the exam. That would be way too much stress for a sick cham and they wouldn't know what to do with her anyway. The sick one needs as little stress as possible. Try not to handle her at all unless absolutely necessary. Misting heavily should be the only way she gets water, a syringe is scary (very stressful) and could drown her. Keep her temperatures at optimal level (I'd say mid 70's) and try to give her as much privacy as possible.

If you don't have UVB over her I'd recommend adding one. While they don't necessarily need UVB my female brev pyg hasn't been feeling so hot in the last week and when I added UVB she perked up. She looks good now, but she's not gravid. If yours is gravid and it's been too long or she's too weak I'm afraid there is probably not much that you can do besides trying to keep her comfortable. I hope she pulls through for you!

 

[Chris Anderson]

Unfortunately despite what you were told by the seller, these animals are WC and will likely need to be deparasitized. Because of the conditions of importation, many of these animals do not survive long in captivity and fall victim to stress, dehydration, parasite loads, egg binding, etc.

I would recommend decreasing your supplementation and changing your enclosure. I recommend fully planted terrariums for pygmy chameleons. Here is a general article on making fully planted enclosures: http://www.chameleonnews.com/05JunRouthouska.html I would use a taller enclosure for this species, however, and preferably one with proper terrarium venting such as an Exo Terra Glass Terrarium.

Chris

 

[sperpich]

Hey all, I have to run to an appointment, but wanted to at least post before I left. Thanks a ton for the replies I will get back and reply in depth later today. She looks a little better this morning and looked right at me so that's a huge improvement. She is walking on the dirt right now, but can't say she is looking to lay. Its good to see her moving, but I know it just may be temporary improvement. I gotta say I really appreciate the help. We've had chams only since Sept 1st. We've done a ton of reading (before and after) and have a happy carpet chameleon and rh temporalis pygmy as well as the male spectrum. We did lose the female temporalis about a month after getting her which fits this girl getting sick now. Gotta run!

 

[sperpich]

Sorry been a busy day. Wondering if it is a good idea to offer food? She's slept most of the day, but has been standing up. Been misting regularly and heavier than normal.