Rescue ~6 month old veiled with MBD, need advice.

[Kerbie]

I just saw Gumby drink water from the bamboo drip set up I made! It's so exciting to see him drink on his own!

He is still doing a little better each day. Today I ordered some silk worms and horn worms for him. I was also able to find out that Novartis is the drug company that makes calcitonin and the trade name is Miacalcin. I will be trying to get in touch with our Novartis rep tomorrow. Overall a great day for Gumby!

 

[Kerbie]

Ok so maybe I celebrated a little too soon, now I am pretty sure that this little dude also has had a respiratory infection from his previously poor husbandry and because I was naive to the symptoms I had no idea, I just thought they puffed up their necks like that. I feel terrible that I didn't realize earlier. I will take him to work with me tomorrow and have the doctor confirm and get him on some antibiotics in addition to all the other MBD meds. Poor Gumby, he just has the odds stacked against him.

 

[Elizadolots]

No, you didn't celebrate too soon. In my opinion, the infection was there but because he was in such bad shape he didn't show those symptoms. It's only because you've done such a good job that you can now see the next problem on the agenda. Respiratory Infections are curable. This is a speed bump, not a road block. Keep plugging, you and Gumby will get through this.

 

[ShipYourReptiles]

Tough to see. Best of luck to you.

 

[HolyToledo]

Celebrate every step forward! Deal with the steps back as they come. It will get better and better as you go.

Keeping you and Gumby in my thoughts and hope there are only minor setbacks.

 

[Kerbie]

I meant to update earlier but the doctor doesn't think Gumby has a respiratory infection. He only puffs and up his neck and takes deep breaths after I syringe feed him. I couldn't get him to do it in front of the vet and he is convinced that Gumby is hissing at me. He used to have a veiled that was really mean and tried to bite everyone, all the time. Gumby doesn't hiss, he is super chill and always bright green when I handle him and feed him. He doesn't really like being misted and turns dark brown/green when I do but he drinks plenty of water off the drip set up I posted a picture of. Either way I now know what to watch for and will be keeping a close eye on him for any new respiratory symptoms.

 

[Elizadolots]

Celebrate every step forward! Deal with the steps back as they come. It will get better and better as you go.

Keeping you and Gumby in my thoughts and hope there are only minor setbacks.

HolyToledo knows! Recovery is not linear. There will be bumps, there will be actual blocks, there will be steps that seem to go backwards.

I meant to update earlier but the doctor doesn't think Gumby has a respiratory infection. He only puffs and up his neck and takes deep breaths after I syringe feed him. I couldn't get him to do it in front of the vet and he is convinced that Gumby is hissing at me. He used to have a veiled that was really mean and tried to bite everyone, all the time. Gumby doesn't hiss, he is super chill and always bright green when I handle him and feed him. He doesn't really like being misted and turns dark brown/green when I do but he drinks plenty of water off the drip set up I posted a picture of. Either way I now know what to watch for and will be keeping a close eye on him for any new respiratory symptoms.

It's great that the doctor has experience as an owner. I think that's a huge bonus for you. Some tend not to like being misted. Try misting everything but him. Spray the top of the cage enough and it will start to drip. That "rain" seems a bit more acceptable for some chameleons.

 

[HolyToledo]

Is he "huffing"?

Twister was never a hisser, gaper, or a biter. He was a mellow, lovable and cuddly cham. But he did tell me he was ticked at me by "huffing". It was just like a short forceful exhale or quick sigh kind of thing he did with his mouth closed. Wasn't mean or nasty but told me he wasn't thrilled...

How's things going otherwise?

If he is still having problems with his stability, I would suggest putting in lots more ropes, vines, etc. for him to move around on and if he falls, they might catch him or keep him from falling so far. Early on in Trooper Twister's care, his viv looked more like a laundry basket! lol. He would not stay in a bin and wanted to be able to move on his vines so I pinned, propped and padded everything with hand and dishtowels to prevent falls. Especially after TT broke one of his leg bones just catching himself from falling off of his vine! TT also broke one leg falling about 12 inches and only fell about 8 inches when he broke his back! So, keep and eye out for falls cuz they can hide their broken bones for days...

Still wishing you the best of luck on this journey.

 

[Kerbie]

He is doing great! Respiratory infection was a false alarm. What you are describing, the "huffing," sounds like what he is doing. He is getting around better on his own and his grip seems to be getting better too.

I'm not having any trouble getting him to drink water and I have seen him drink on his own for at least 4 days in a row now. He has gained 17g since I got him 10 or so days ago and he stopped fighting the calcium supplement too.

Overall so much better than before. Also, we were able to find a distributor for the calcitonin and he will be getting his first injection on Friday.

 

[HolyToledo]

Very good news!

So good to hear you two are doing so well. I always though Twister's "huffs" were funny. He was such a love but know he was fed up or knew what I was gonna do to him and wasn't thrilled about it when he huffed at me.

 

[Kerbie]

I was going online to get some repashy calcium supplements and they offered ones with different levels of vitamin D3, the one with the highest levels said it was for animals in a calcium crisis. I was under the impression that I should only be giving vit D3 twice a month. Would it make sense to give it more often in an MBD cham?

 

[HolyToledo]

Rather than messing with the d3 dosing, the best thing you can do is natural un-filtered sun exposure that allows your critter to make their own d3.

Over-dosing on d3 can be very bad for a cham too and you might want to do more research on what to watch for with higher d3 levels and get other good advice on here first.

Be careful and good luck.

 

[Dr O]

hi kerbie--

what a fantastic job you have been doing!! from the look of his legs alone, the MBD seems pretty severe. i do have a question for you re: the use of his tongue. since we are unsure if he is able to use his tongue to feed due to neuro damage and the calcium imbalance vs. other reasons, i was very interested to read that he began drinking well. when he drinks, is he using his tongue to lap up the droplets or catch dripping water? assuming that he is, i think the day will come again where he may regain the use of his tongue for feeding! there is a big difference between the motor control needed for lapping water and the cerebellar-related fine control of shooting the tongue out. but it shows a step in the right direction.

as far as the D3 supplementation goes, the calcium intake right now is of paramount importance if you are going to be using calcitonin. calcitonin injections will tremendously speed up the healing process and are an excellent tool in the treatment of nutritional MBD. however, what they will do is force any circulating calcium in the blood to basicaly bind back into the bone, increase activity of osteoblasts which grow healthy bone, decrease the activity of osteoclasts which tear down the bone structure, allow excess cacium to be excreted through the urine, in addition to some other effects. so that means that if the calcium levels in the blood are low already and you give the calcitonin, you can cause an acute hypocalcemic crisis which can be fatal. the rule of thumb is to not even give calcitonin until you have a blood panel that shows adequate levels of calcium in the bloodstream.

often therapy is initiated with injections of Vit. D3 in the very begininng. but continuing to over-supplement parentally or orally can still lead to toxic effects. therefore, the best thing that you can do regarding D3 at this time is to offer as much exposure to true sunlight as possible, followed up with mercury vapor bulbs that even exceed what level you would normally use. the reason for this is that there is no way to overdose on D3 when it is formed in the skin from exposure to UVB. so it would certainly be the safest way to go.

my advice would be to run the chemistry panel prior to the calcitonin and make sure his calcium levels are normal. otherwise you need to wait until they are normal before you proceed by supplementing with calcium gluboniate or the Repashy version. continue to give oral calcium daily, with added D3 used as you normally use it, as long as you can provide the UVB exposure to get the D3 through light. if you lived in a cave we might have to discuss the D3 more and how to give it, but that does not seem like it will be an issue given what you have said before.

i think that should cover it. please let me know about the tongue question--

dr. o—

 

[Kerbie]

Dr. O, Thank you for all the information. Do you have a certain mercury vapor bulb that you would recommend. I have seen a few people talking about them but I am still relatively new to all of this and would really appreciate a recommendation.

It is getting hot in Austin and the last few days have gotten up to 95 degrees, another member had said that her vet had told her to keep her cham at a higher temp, up to 100 degrees, to help with the MBD. Is this a good idea? Ferretinmyshoes told me that sunlight even if it is indirect is better than indoor uvb bulbs, is 95 degrees but in the shade too hot?

As far as his tongue goes, he can definitely use it to some degree. He will lap up water and while I was still syringing reptiboost he would stick his tongue out a little bit when he would swallow. Now that I am trying to get him to eat worms he is using his tongue to spit them back at me. He will not eat worms on his own and I have to open his mouth and pop them in. I have tried leaving them in a clear bowl and holding them in front of his face but he just tries to get away from them.

Thanks so much!

 

[Dr O]

Kerbie, I am glad that I can help.

I think the best tool that I have bought in the past few years regarding my Chameleons has been a UVB meter. And the prices have also dropped dramatically from about the mid four hundreds to perhaps just under $200 or so now. There is just nothing like actually putting specific bulbs and brands to the test in terms of their output and distance, as well as longevity and not just using the mythical "replace every six months". For instance, I have found that a 100 W zoo med PowerSun will throw 20 to 30 at about 12 inches, whereas a 160 W Exo-terra bulb was only giving me about 8 to 10 at that distance. The compact fluorescent and linear fluorescent 5.0 zoo med reptisun bulbs have been surprisingly effective, equaling the powersun in almost every aspect. However there may be a large difference in longevity of the bulb.

To put this into perspective, if I stand outside and turn it on my meter, it will typically be 200 to 225. So that just really exemplifies that today's bulbs, as good as they are, are just nothing compared to what true sunlight can do. I'm sure you know by now that glass, plastic, and screen can reduce a bulbs or the suns output to zero. So with any sick reptile, I am always telling my clients "sun, sun, and more sun".

I do also tell my clients to typically raise their temperatures 10° over where they normally are, but I would say 100 would be as far as I would take it. And of course he must be able to get away from that intensity if he needs to.

In your case I would suggest going from something like a 5.0 to a 10.0 and doubling the amount of bulbs for whenever he is caged. And then direct sunlight with shade provided for the other times.

dr. o—

 

[HolyToledo]

Hooray for Dr. O! So glad you are advising on this one. You just explain things so clearly.

Kerbie:
With Twister, not only did we raise his temps, I had both a 5.0 and 10.0 (one on each end of his basking branch) and he would move back and forth between them throughout the day.

But nothing compared to the difference that the natural sunlight made. Even on the days where he would sit in his window perch with the window closed, just being in the sunshine helped his attitude and outlook so on those days, I just put his UVB light above his window perch. But on the days when the window could be open and he got the un-filtered sun, you could actually see the difference it made after just a couple of days.

 

[Kerbie]

I have been looking online at all of the different types of mercury vapor bulbs available and as far as I can tell everyone seems to agree that Mega-Ray bulbs are the best that you can get. Problem is that all of their bulbs are on backorder on their website and they are not available anywhere else.

That being said, the planets aligned and this magical craigslist post from someone that lives right down the street appears in my google search and they are selling this bulb that has never been used and is still in the box!

http://www.reptileuv.com/megaray-sb-100-watt-self-ballasted-flood-uvb-lamp.php

The post was from a few months ago so I was pretty sure it would not still be for sale, but guess what, it is! So Gumby is pretty damn lucky in my opinion. What are the chances that someone would be selling this really hard to find bulb on craigslist a few miles from me at the exact time I needed to find it?

Anyway, I think that it will work out great for increasing his indoor uvb and also work to raise the temp a little more as suggested by Dr. O.

Thanks Universe!

 

[FranPhilip]

Hello Everyone! This is my first post and my first chameleon. I am a veterinary technician and I took on a little guy with severe MBD when the previous owners were going to put him down. I named him Gumby because of his condition.

The vet I work with knows a lot about reptiles in general and has had a veiled chameleon himself so we have covered all of the basics as far as husbandry and feeding. We took an x-ray and he has multiple pathologic fractures of his long bones so I made little splints for his arms and legs out of a reusable plastic straw.

He is unable to eat on his own as he has lost function of his tongue due to MBD so I have been syringe feeding repta-boost 2-3 times a day. He weighs 63g, up from 55g five days ago. He is also getting calcionate syrup and I have ordered phoenix worms for him, they are on their way. He has 2 UVB 5.0 lamps and a heat lamp and I put him outside on the patio, not in direct sunlight, as much as possible, so far 3 of the 5 days he has been with me.

Overall he is doing so much better than when he came home with me, he is walking and climbing and has developed an attitude, which is always a good sign in other species. That being said he has started to spit his repta-boost out when I feed him and he hates the calcionate and drools all over the place when I give it to him. I am using the chart in the box for his weight but he is getting harder and harder to feed.

I guess I was hoping to get some advice from those of you that have been through this before, as it is all new to me. Is there anything else that I could be doing to help him?

Such an amazing idea. But how the heck did you get those straws around his legs? I would love to know because my little dude has a case of MBD and that is an amazing idea to help him.

 

[Kerbie]

Such an amazing idea. But how the heck did you get those straws around his legs? I would love to know because my little dude has a case of MBD and that is an amazing idea to help him.

I used a stiff plastic reusable straw, the kind that comes with the tourist attraction cups that cost like $12. I cut them the lengths of his long bones and then cut down the sides of the small pieces. Then you just open the piece into a C shape and place them over the limbs. Make sure not to cut them too long because they will prevent the joint from moving throughout the normal range of motion and could cause additional injury if you are not careful. The stiff plastic keeps the C from stretching open and keeps the fractures stable.

Hope this helps!

 

[FranPhilip]

I used a stiff plastic reusable straw, the kind that comes with the tourist attraction cups that cost like $12. I cut them the lengths of his long bones and then cut down the sides of the small pieces. Then you just open the piece into a C shape and place them over the limbs. Make sure not to cut them too long because they will prevent the joint from moving throughout the normal range of motion and could cause additional injury if you are not careful. The stiff plastic keeps the C from stretching open and keeps the fractures stable.

Hope this helps!

Okay awesome. Makes sense. Do you think i could buy the straws somewhere else? And were you able to open it enough so you could easily put it over the arm?