Rant-The Science of Raising Chameleons

[JaxyGirl]

I agree with this 100% Without being able to hear the tone of voice, mild criticisms or advice that is meant to be helpful are often interpreted in the worst possible way. I find this with emails also, so when offering advice it's best to try to word it such that it can't be taken too harshly. I've read threads here, as I'm sure everyone else has, where the OP totally got bent out of shape when someone gave them what they interpreted as harsh advice when in reality the person offering help was just being straightforward and honest. As in for example "you need to take that cham to the vet ASAP! he looks very dehydrated" (or something along those lines) I'm sure there are quite a few examples like this on this forum.

It's amazing how easily things can be taken wrong on CF. I do think that it is hard to communicate what one wants to say via writing and things just get misconstrued and blown out of proportion. Which I think is a shame really because I think that everyone on here is on here because they want the best for the health of their chams or they wouldn't be on this forum in the first place .

 

[draetish]

Great post Juli, no idea why I hadn't seen this sooner. Wish there was something I could add but your pretty much said everything there needs to be said, as well as everyone else who has brought their opinions to the table.

Speaking of, I recently got a PM from someone which irked me a little. I'll cut out the details that could be specific as to who sent it, but it has me wondering how many other people feel like this and some days it makes me want to stop posting altogether... if I'm going to get PMs like this, why bother?

Quote:
[...]it just seems like you have a lot of negative two cents the way you word things here. from what i read from you, you come of very sarcastic, you state the obvious, or you dont do what youre suppost to do on here and help. ex. there are countless posts with a simple answer of "why dont you use the search button" blah blah, like help man, noobs that dont have countless hours on here dont know how to use it. sometimes the search doesnt find what you want. your just very obvious sometimes when you dont need to be. sry if i offended you,[...]


When most of the senior members on here started keeping chameleons, they did not have a forum or maybe even the internet. They learn by researching everyday, anyway they can. It is not up to the forum members to make sure your cham survives, it is up to the owner. I'm talking about basic information and even illness. It's called 'GOOGLE', and if you type in closed eyes you will get a wealth of information, not just members experience and knowledge. That to me is the intriguing part of keeping an exotic animal.

 

[FFSTRescue]

When most of the senior members on here started keeping chameleons, they did not have a forum or maybe even the internet. They learn by researching everyday, anyway they can. It is not up to the forum members to make sure your cham survives, it is up to the owner. I'm talking about basic information and even illness. It's called 'GOOGLE', and if you type in closed eyes you will get a wealth of information, not just members experience and knowledge. That to me is the intriguing part of keeping an exotic animal.

Exactly. When I started keeping chams, and reptiles in general, I bought almost every single book I could and read them cover to cover and searched the net daily. Even when these forums existed, I wasn't a member because I not only didn't know about them , but I had researched so much on my own that I didn't have common questions. Reptile Medicine and Surgery by Douglas Mader, DVM is my Bible, I have read that cover to cover (I kinda had to for school), but I thoroughly enjoyed it, and still enjoy reading it, and I believe is is a must for every reptile owner, especially every chameleon owner because they are so sensitive and complicated. I don't know what I would have done without that book, and with almost all of the medical questions asked on here, the answers can be found in that book... hint hint, everyone should buy it

 

[eisentrauti]

Exactly. When I started keeping chams, and reptiles in general, I bought almost every single book I could and read them cover to cover and searched the net daily. Even when these forums existed, I wasn't a member because I not only didn't know about them , but I had researched so much on my own that I didn't have common questions. Reptile Medicine and Surgery by Douglas Mader, DVM is my Bible, I have read that cover to cover (I kinda had to for school), but I thoroughly enjoyed it, and still enjoy reading it, and I believe is is a must for every reptile owner, especially every chameleon owner because they are so sensitive and complicated. I don't know what I would have done without that book, and with almost all of the medical questions asked on here, the answers can be found in that book... hint hint, everyone should buy it

Let's face it, the majority of the keepers here has not more than 5 books about keeping reptiles / chameleons. I don't know in how many threads I recommend to first buy a book, then do more research online and then buy the animal. But unfortunately none of the addressees took me serious, especially because many people told them that is not so important to buy books.
People believe more or less blind to the hints which were given them from pet shop clarks (who have in Europe and in the US just one goal: sell as many animals as possible) . When they realize that their keeping doesn't really work the post a thread here, searching for people who support them in their god given knowledge about those animals and how to keep them

 

[kinyonga]

You said..."When most of the senior members on here started keeping chameleons, they did not have a forum or maybe even the internet. They learn by researching everyday, anyway they can"...that is exactly what I did!

However, although you can find lots of information on Google and by reading books, its still hard for the newbies to figure out which information is right and which isn't...so I prefer to give them sites, etc. that I know are good.

Its hard for newbies to even know what advice offered on forums (including this one) is good too...and in some cases there are many answers to the same question/problem (for instance, supplementation) partly because there are so many variables in each situation.

 

[jastate09]

When I started with my first chameleon back in 2002 I had a computer but info on chameleons was scarce. I got most of my info from books and other keepers. Far too often I have seen keepers jump into chameleons acquiring way too many reptiles. The reptiles become ill due to lack of proper care and die. Many of these keepers look at it like “he didn’t survive” or “that one didn’t make it”. Years ago that might have been the case but today a captive breed chameleon with the proper care, lighting and supplements should live a long normal life. I know there are exceptions to everything, egg bound females and such. Proper care was experimenting and many died with people experimenting to find out “proper care”. Today there is so much more information on chameleon care there’s no reason to have chameleons “just not surviving” or not making it.

It takes allot of time and special care to give your chameleon everything that it needs and requires. A healthy chameleon will be with you for years not months. So think twice before you buy a chameleon they are very high maintenance animals. Be prepared BEFORE you buy a chameleon and make sure you can keep one alive for a good year before you buy another one. If you are thinking about adding multiply chameleons give it a few years. If you are buying chameleons all the time and they are constantly dying off you need to re- evaluate your situation. You may be one of those keepers that just don’t have the time and the money to care for these majestic creatures and you need to find a pet that doesn’t require so much. It’s sad to see so many people killing off chameleons every day.

 

[sandrachameleon]

You're not alone Julirs. Despite the frustration, all we can do is try.
Love your sig: Just because you don't want to hear it does not mean it is not good information.
But I also try to remember that there really are no rules. What works for me often wouldnt work for others, and visa versa. I think of keeping chameleons more like an Art than a Science. If we only talk about one way of doing things, we dont learn and grow.

...Its hard for newbies to even know what advice offered on forums (including this one) is good too...and in some cases there are many answers to the same question/problem (for instance, supplementation) partly because there are so many variables in each situation.

...It takes allot of time and special care to give your chameleon everything that it needs and requires. ....It’s sad to see so many people killing off chameleons every day.

so true.

 

[morpheon]

Time to add my 2 cents!

It is true that people with high reputation may not know as much as some others, but when someone has 5 green bubbles (or more), they proved to know at least the basics! Yes, it is hard for a newcomer to determine which information are good and which are bad, we've all been through that. However, one of my "solution" to the problem of misinformation and misleading is simply to unite.

What i mean by uniting is to quote someone who added a good comment and mention how good this advice is. I sometimes try to do it, but i surely not do it enough, and i plead (plaid Kiny!) guilty for this! By uniting on a same subject, when 3 or 4 true senior members with lots of reputation all work together, it's hard to believe that someone will do the opposite! So if you want to solve this problem, please, don't hesitate to say publicly that a previous poster is giving good advice on a particular subject!! Together, we can make things work better!

Of course, even if the 4 best posters here (I'm not saying names because i don't know nor care who they are) would say the same thing, some people would still not listen to them. This is their right, and at least you guys would have done your best and all your can to help the chameleon(s).

I also like what Olimpia said about the voice of experience not being the voice of frustration. I, for myself, is guilty of having been (and i still am sometimes i admit it) pretty rude or harsh with people. If you browse through my first very posts (maybe first 20 or 30), i got into "fights" with other people while trying to help them. My goal was not to attack them, but i clearly formulated things in a very hard way, and people were right about getting mad at me. This probably caused people to not listen to me, even if my advice were good and worth listening to. At the end, i think it is very important to be as clear and as nice as possible, to make sure that everything has been said, but not too much either! Otherwise, the good information may not be taken into account!

Also, even if i agree that what may work for one may not work for another, it is important to say that most of the rules must be respected! If we'd follow this thinking of not everything works for everyone, we would have no basic conditions for chameleons and we'd be back to where things were 20 years ago! The main purpose is to help as much people (and their chameleons) as possible. Yes, we get some behind, but at least we can save the majority by giving general information! And since newcomers need basic information, we better give them the general conditions that work for most people, no? At the end, nobody says that you can't admit that this is GENERAL information, and not UNIVERSAL.


EDIT: I tried to give my opinion, but also a few solutions. I am the first to admit that my solutions have their limits, and that they may not be the best. The problem Julirs posted is true, actual, and is worth talking about. However, with the comments are that very interesting to read, if you guys (and ladies) could add some solutions, it would be better! And even if your solutions are not the best, they may give a better idea to someone else! So please, don't remain quiet!

 

[jannb]

https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/sandrachameleon/228-no-rules.html What works for me often wouldn't work for others, and visa versa. I think of keeping chameleons more like an Art than a Science. If we only talk about one way of doing things, we dont learn and grow.

Well said Sandra!!! I totally agree.

I also like what morphen said about uniting.

By uniting to quote someone who added a good comment and mention how good this advice is. By uniting on a same subject, when 3 or 4 true senior members with lots of reputation all work together, it's hard to believe that someone will do the opposite.

There are a few members here that have many years of experience. There are many members that have several years of experience. There are even more members that have very limited experience. We all contribute in our own way. Sometimes people with only a year or two of experience has tried something that works that perhaps a very experienced keeper hasn't tried. But when that advice or suggestion is offered, it is dismissed because we 'already know it won't work'. There is so much to the successful keeping of chameleons, a few great individuals may have extensive knowledge, but don't know everything. Who possibly could? We have to keep in mind that not only is each individual chameleon different, but so are their keepers.

As far as reputaion points go: When new members ask what they are and how you get them, we tell them, others give them to you when they like something you post. So, the reputation system works the way it should.

 

[eisentrauti]

As far as reputaion points go: When new members ask what they are and how you get them, we tell them, others give them to you when they like something you post. So, the reputation system works the way it should.

That's the point where it doesn't work. They give you them for the posts they like. Not for the posts which are necessary and needed, telling the truth

 

[morpheon]

That's the point where it doesn't work. They give you them for the posts they like. Not for the posts which are necessary and needed, telling the truth

I'll try to add a few infos about the reputation points:

1) Most people like GOOD infos and good advice. Of course, some people send reputation points as a joke (i did i admit it!), and for good pictures, but these are less commun and they usually aren't done by reputated forumers. There is also another category of people sending reputation points for off-subject matters that are still important in their life. I remember receiving reputation points about psychology subjects that were not related to chameleon husbandry. Is it good? I don't know, but what i know is even if i don't have much reputation so far, most of it isn't related to off-subject matters.

2) There is something linked to the number of green bubbles: the reputation power. Reputation power is what determines how much points you add to someone's reputation when you add them some. For example, if i add reputation to someone, compared to Syn or Jannb or whoever with 5+ bubbles, i'll add a lot less.

3) If we consider that the people with very high reputation points (5 bubbles or more) don't add reputation very often for fun or for less useful threads knowledge-wise, you'll have someone with barely no reputation adding 1 or 2 points to another! At the end, i don't see many people getting very high in reputation if it's not deserved!

4.1) This is more personal, but i see no problem with someone who is very active on these boards get high reputation even if they don't know much. If they make people laugh, post some pictures, entertain everyone, feel sad for the chameleon's death, etc, i think they are useful enough to these boards to be well reputated. The moral or the dynamic of the boards are as much important as the knowledge in my opinion. If we can't have fun when we come here, we wouldn't be here! Of course, we can have fun by reading intelligent things, but if it's friendly, it's even better! The bottom line of this #4 is personal and i can easily see people disagree. If this is the case, it's your choice and i see no point in arguying with you because i feel you would be as right as i can be for this subject!

4.2) I would also add that the people with very high posts (1000+) with lots of reputation WITHOUT giving much advice must know a lot anyway. After trolling on the boards that much, like it or not, you're supposed to start knowing your stuff! Furthermore, if they feel they don't know much, they'll probably refrain themself for giving advice that they may not be certain of. My perceptions may be a little off, but i clearly see more newcomers with no reputation give wrongful advice than someone with 3 bubbles or more, no matter who they are.


To conclude, my opinion is the reputation system is working, and it is working even better if we unite. Yes, it has its inherent weakness, but they are far less important than the roots of this system! At the worst, maybe 1 to 2 points out of 10 aren't related to chameleons. So what?? I, for myself, can not claim these points weren't deserved anyway! Also, who said reputation points were stricly reserved to chameleon related subjects?? Maybe Syn can find out the exact rule, but i don't know it!

 

[Julirs]

Just to be clear, I never intended this thread to be a discussion on reputation squares.

 

[morpheon]

I know you didn't, but the reputation subject is very closely related to your initial subject and since it has been mentionned a few times, i think it was worth clarifying a few things. I am sorry if this was not something you wanted.

 

[sandrachameleon]

Im drawn to the comments about a United voice. I like it. I try to do this, to agree with comments others make in order to add weight to them. Even when others have covered all the bases, I still will often just say "I agree" - it might clutter a thread, but it does also give, i think, the OP a better chance at hearing the "good" experienced advice (at least what I think is good) over the "nice" or even wrong advice. Its natural sometimes to want to listen to what you like hearing, rather than what feels harder, more difficult or puts you on the defensive (even if people try to remain pleasant and positive when giving difficult advice or critisim). But if the "nice" but incorrect voice is but one "against" a multitude giving better if less pallatable advice, well the lonely nice voice can be drowned out a little, eh?

 

[FFSTRescue]

What we also need to remember is that when people come to this forum with a health related issue, they are stressed and emotional. This stress increases catecholamine, glucocorticoid, and ACTH levels (hormones), causing them to naturally (and scientifically proven) think with their "primitive" brain, instead of using logic to reason through it. I take this into consideration when I speak to them, and also when they respond and seem to be upset in their response. I don't take their responses too seriously, though people do have control of their actions that result from emotions and don't need to call someone vulgar names, so there is a limit to irrational behavior. This is basically the same thing that happens in a vet clinic. Dealing with someone that is coming in for a euthanasia or an ill animal is completely different than someone coming in for routine vaccinations. I almost have to deal with them in a child-like manner because of the altered chemical composition of their bodies. I have even noticed this with myself in stressful situations with my pets, and when the level of hormones that were elevated went back to normal, I was able to use logic and realize that I may have unnecessarily over-reacted to a situation in which I wouldn't have normally, if my stress levels hadn't caused an increase in these hormones. Just something to think about...

 

[FroggtheCham]

What we also need to remember is that when people come to this forum with a health related issue, they are stressed and emotional. This stress increases catecholamine, glucocorticoid, and ACTH levels (hormones), causing them to naturally (and scientifically proven) think with their "primitive" brain, instead of using logic to reason through it. I take this into consideration when I speak to them, and also when they respond and seem to be upset in their response. I don't take their responses too seriously, though people do have control of their actions that result from emotions and don't need to call someone vulgar names, so there is a limit to irrational behavior. This is basically the same thing that happens in a vet clinic. Dealing with someone that is coming in for a euthanasia or an ill animal is completely different than someone coming in for routine vaccinations. I almost have to deal with them in a child-like manner because of the altered chemical composition of their bodies. I have even noticed this with myself in stressful situations with my pets, and when the level of hormones that were elevated went back to normal, I was able to use logic and realize that I may have unnecessarily over-reacted to a situation in which I wouldn't have normally, if my stress levels hadn't caused an increase in these hormones. Just something to think about...

This is a great point Kristen. I'm gonna add my 2 cents to this considering that a majority of new members are joining just for this reason. With this increased flight or fight hormone elevation, these people are almost in a state of panic and looking for confirmation that they are not at fault, that they did nothing wrong, or that there really is nothing wrong with their animal. When in fact it may be all the above. I have found in these situations, people are looking for what they want to hear and that may not neccessarily be the truth. So when they get what they don't want to hear by any manner of delivery, they become defensive and sometimes won't hear what they need to hear unless told in a more matter of fact or stern delivery. Not that it has to be rude or demeaning to get that information across, but I for one am willing to take the risk of being the bad guy if it helps that person and their animal in the long run. Like others have posted previously on this thread, backing up the correct advice will help drive that message home. After a healthy rant, most people will realize it wasn't meant to be negative and reconsider the advice. But like you said Kristen, in their initial responses, they may have a clouded jugement. This is the reason I don't respond to the rants. It only escalates the situation with no results. I let them take the information and do what they want with it. I just state what I feel they need to hear, the best way I can

 

[elrojo]

Very good point, FFST. I think I had subconsciously noticed this at my own work (I own a pet shop), but having it pointed out in those terms was something I needed to hear. At least a couple of times a year, people will have disease or something wipe out (or at least affect) an entire established aquarium. I've had very competent sane customers act like complete lunatics! They blame me (or another store) for selling them their last fish, or even suggest everything was fine until they bought that filter or other piece of equipment. While parasite introduction is certainly possible through a new fish addition, usually the blame and anger is entirely irrational and misplaced. But before I dismiss these people as emotional, I have to remember how I acted toward the Zoo-Med rep when one of their heat pads overheated to the point it shattered the tempered glass tank bottom and killed the pair of prized Chris Allen red beardies I was raising. Nothing he could offer me would make it "okay." In retrospect, I wish he hadn't answered his phone.

On a different topic, Julirs, the original post was excellent. I *do* have to state that one of my biggest frustrations with the reptile hobby is the adherence to the care sheet, and the stagnation of all of our learning from everyone doing the same thing. While it is great for anyone new to follow an exact flow chart that should ensure success, I fear that fewer and fewer people are willing to become pioneers of herpetoculture. For horn-worms to become a reliable food source, some brave soul had to try one! For fireflies to be deemed potentially deadly, someone also had to try that. Yes, keeping captive reptiles is a science, but science by definition experiments. I am convinced (particularly with chams) that we have only scratched the surface of discovery. There is so much potential benefit from investigation. My dear friend Clay Davenport put it well:

Use those care manuals to form the basis of your maintenance strategy, but do not come to depend on them entirely. Once you have learned to keep your animals healthy, put the books down and turn your attention toward the animals themselves. Find an area that raises your curiosity and investigate it. Always remember, the goal is not to have all the answers, but to be able to ask better questions.

 

[Julirs]

Very good point, FFST. I think I had subconsciously noticed this at my own work (I own a pet shop), but having it pointed out in those terms was something I needed to hear. At least a couple of times a year, people will have disease or something wipe out (or at least affect) an entire established aquarium. I've had very competent sane customers act like complete lunatics! They blame me (or another store) for selling them their last fish, or even suggest everything was fine until they bought that filter or other piece of equipment. While parasite introduction is certainly possible through a new fish addition, usually the blame and anger is entirely irrational and misplaced. But before I dismiss these people as emotional, I have to remember how I acted toward the Zoo-Med rep when one of their heat pads overheated to the point it shattered the tempered glass tank bottom and killed the pair of prized Chris Allen red beardies I was raising. Nothing he could offer me would make it "okay." In retrospect, I wish he hadn't answered his phone.

On a different topic, Julirs, the original post was excellent. I *do* have to state that one of my biggest frustrations with the reptile hobby is the adherence to the care sheet, and the stagnation of all of our learning from everyone doing the same thing. While it is great for anyone new to follow an exact flow chart that should ensure success, I fear that fewer and fewer people are willing to become pioneers of herpetoculture. For horn-worms to become a reliable food source, some brave soul had to try one! For fireflies to be deemed potentially deadly, someone also had to try that. Yes, keeping captive reptiles is a science, but science by definition experiments. I am convinced (particularly with chams) that we have only scratched the surface of discovery. There is so much potential benefit from investigation. My dear friend Clay Davenport put it well:

Nicely written! I agree with you in every aspect. My frustration lies with new people doing "experiments" I suppose. People need to have some experience with the animals, a variety of animals, to understand how they could react, to see what stress looks like, to understand the symptoms of illness. There is a method to the madness in science, and there are certainly wrong ways to go about things. There are certainly things I do that I would never suggest to a beginner as it does not set them up for optimal sucess.

But again, my original frustration lies with people thinkiing, "They were nice, I will listen to them." rather than, "It looks like they have some experience, I will listen to them."