Raising snails. Will these sufficie?
- Thread starter TheLetterAfterP(Q)
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cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ya that looks full grown. Good to know they can take a full grown. I mean they are pretty liquidey, once they get through the shell it should slide right down.
I found the link to the study Kinyonga had it in a thread.
Dietary analysis...Hawaiian Jackson's.... (scan down....first page is blank)...
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/publications/pdf/chamaeleo-report.pdf
Opps. Not the study I was looking for but informative just the same.
Dietary analysis...Hawaiian Jackson's.... (scan down....first page is blank)...
http://hbs.bishopmuseum.org/publications/pdf/chamaeleo-report.pdf
Opps. Not the study I was looking for but informative just the same.
Highway61
Chameleon Enthusiast
Yeah, I thought it was too big to even get his interest but get his interest it did! I did watch him drop what's left to the bottom but I had to make tracks to work this morning and couldn't stick around to see if he'd make his way to the bottom for it. At this point it's road kill so I doubt it.
This is the study. Jacksons Snail digestion study
sadly it does not reveal shell composition that I saw. It does show how well and quickly they digest snail shell.
sadly it does not reveal shell composition that I saw. It does show how well and quickly they digest snail shell.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Hmm interesting read. Goes into my idea as well. It takes a week to full digest the shell. So in theory, the shell is providing calcium for an entire week.
So 1 snail a week, of middling size, could in fact replace dusting. Dusting with a Multi Vit would still be a good idea 2 times week or so still though. Maybe with the addition of Reptiworms, once a month.
I also wonder, the tree snail's they eat, how much D3 they posses. I really really really want some Tree snail's. They are kept by some people, but they refuse to share anything. They won't sell you snail's, they won't tell you their miracle food product to feed the snail's, they just flat out refuse lol.
Tree snail's, need to become CB as Feeders IMO, they eat Moss and lichens and bacterias, not plants, they are legal to ship across state lines, and I would think have quite a bit of D3, as they are aboreal and Require UVB to survive in captivity.
So any of you Florida, Hawaii guys, we need to make Tree Snail's a thing!
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
One such individual.
"I will not sell Tree Snail's"
"You didn't even ask me the reason! But I will tell you all anyways:
People are stupid. They turned this into a big marketing type thing, wanting snails without even trying to care for them properly, or wanting to get them in bulk as feeders for their reptiles. They started going out and collecting them, then killing in large amounts. Such a market will wipe out the wild populations (the only reason Orthalicus used to be legal and Liguus is protected is because there was never a collection interest in them. Orthalicus are not more numerous in the wild, they are just left alone. But not anymore due to greedy people). I don't even want to sell mine anymore because I have already seen two people ignore my directions and kill their snails. This is also why my new powder formula is secret, someone could steal the recipe and sell it along with wild caught Orthalicus. Since i will never reveal it people who catch Orthalicus will have to buy the formula powder from me, so in a way I have influence over how large their collection can get and if I see big marketing type events I will cut those people off completely.
Orthalicus also only lay 6-8 eggs each, only once per year, so any kind of "mass-breeding" for sales is impossible. (another reason people would be tempted to take huge numbers from the wild and decimate the populations).
The FL wildlife organizations are thinking about listing them as a protected species now.
So moral of the story: People done goofed, this is a complicated species to care for, the wild populations must be protected. I won't entertain any Orthalicus purchase attempts.
They also do not do very well on "smoothie mix" and will get sick eventually since it is too far away from their natural diet. The FL tree snails also do NOT eat lichen. This is a myth. I had a mix of branches from FL in my terrarium and they have not once touched the lichen on it. The powder formula is the only way, so don't even try anything else."
Read more: http://petsnails.proboards.com/thread/16018/snails-captivity-florida-snail-videos#ixzz5trgLf0Jc
"I will not sell Tree Snail's"
"You didn't even ask me the reason! But I will tell you all anyways:
People are stupid. They turned this into a big marketing type thing, wanting snails without even trying to care for them properly, or wanting to get them in bulk as feeders for their reptiles. They started going out and collecting them, then killing in large amounts. Such a market will wipe out the wild populations (the only reason Orthalicus used to be legal and Liguus is protected is because there was never a collection interest in them. Orthalicus are not more numerous in the wild, they are just left alone. But not anymore due to greedy people). I don't even want to sell mine anymore because I have already seen two people ignore my directions and kill their snails. This is also why my new powder formula is secret, someone could steal the recipe and sell it along with wild caught Orthalicus. Since i will never reveal it people who catch Orthalicus will have to buy the formula powder from me, so in a way I have influence over how large their collection can get and if I see big marketing type events I will cut those people off completely.
Orthalicus also only lay 6-8 eggs each, only once per year, so any kind of "mass-breeding" for sales is impossible. (another reason people would be tempted to take huge numbers from the wild and decimate the populations).
The FL wildlife organizations are thinking about listing them as a protected species now.
So moral of the story: People done goofed, this is a complicated species to care for, the wild populations must be protected. I won't entertain any Orthalicus purchase attempts.
They also do not do very well on "smoothie mix" and will get sick eventually since it is too far away from their natural diet. The FL tree snails also do NOT eat lichen. This is a myth. I had a mix of branches from FL in my terrarium and they have not once touched the lichen on it. The powder formula is the only way, so don't even try anything else."
Read more: http://petsnails.proboards.com/thread/16018/snails-captivity-florida-snail-videos#ixzz5trgLf0Jc
I know snails have a trace of vitamin A but I don't know about D3. If you are housing outdoors your chameleon won't need that supplements as they can make enough of their own with proper sun exposure. Indoors I wouldn't count on snails for that.
It's an interesting theory.
It's an interesting theory.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Not solely counting on snails, just lessening the amount of Dusting w D3. And cutting dusting with calcium at every feeding completely.
Why do we provide less UVB than outdoors just to supplement though, why not increase UVB in our caging to provide it?
I don't think land snail's have D3 at all. Tree snail's, require more UVB than a Cham to survive in captivity, so they are doing something with it.
Of course it's the same as the Facebook groups. One page they say D3 is the devil, on another give D3. However, I am inclined to agree.
In the sun, or more UVB Chams can decide how much D3 they want and need. By feeding it we remove that option, and overdose is dangerous. Maybe we should be using stronger UVB light's, so they can do the D3 themselves.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ya it's alot of calcium, how many Crickets you think we could ghost with a snail's shell?
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cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ya I think it would be a much healthier way to Supplement, still do a MV once a month with some D3 but more natural feeding the rest of the time
. Reptiworms are also high in calcium. I was actually surprised as well, to see Isopods in the diet from your first link. I never thought they were on the menu in the wild. So stuff like that is good natural food with natural Calcium, and Vit A, if we could fully D3 with Artificial lights, we could maybe even drop supplementing entirely.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
It said 3 days to move through the stomach into the intenstines, which it takes another 2 or 3 from there to be fully through the system, dissolved or otherwise.
So it's a slow release Calcium, like taking a all day pain releiver, it's the perfect way to provide Calcium and Vit A IMO, but I am not a vet.
cyberlocc
Chameleon Enthusiast
What do you mean?
It takes time, because it's like a jawbreaker vs a pixie stick. Pretty much the same stuff right.
However the powdered form of the pixie stick, dissolves instantly in water. It's water soluble.
However we have to constantly lick the jawbreaker to slowly wittle it down. As it's been compacted and hardened, it takes longer to break down. The liquid (our saliva) has to slowly break it down layer by layer. Same applies to this.
We know that Calcium is also fat soluble, so if given too much the Cham will store it in fat cells. So like you said, a slower amount is preferred. At the same time, they likely are always using it.
So a slow steady constant amount of calcium would probably be the best.
And if we look to that diet chart, there is only really good sources of calcium, being the Isopods and Snail's. Everything else they are consuming doesn't offer really much calcium. Their is land snail's everywhere there is Chams, so them being a staple on the menu to me would make sense.
If one snail could keep them with enough calcium for a couple of weeks, you would think they too would know that, and eat them as enrichment. They know to eat soil, when lacking a mineral they want from it. We see the same in like dogs, they will chew on copper cords when lacking in heavy metals in their diet. They know how to supplement themselves seemingly.
Then we have stuff like this.
They seem to know exactly what it is, exactly how to eat it, and like the link said even when it's not moving they know it's food, instinctively.
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jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
Ehhh idk about that analogy with the jawbreaker. We lick the jawbreaker, we don't swallow it. I'm not disagreeing. Just a little curious how it would work... if something is sitting in your stomach for days, it would interfere with other foods you eat. Not to mention calcium often inhibits the uptake of other minerals and nutrients from my understanding. So my thinking is, couldn't having a constant calcium source in your stomach interfere a little?
jamest0o0
Chameleon Enthusiast
That video doesn't convince me, I have snails, fed them to panther and Parsons, they were pretty confused by them at first and eventually used their tongues. I think the walking up and biting is either a jacksons or individual strategy rather than an instinct from the wild, but then again, I don't know for certain.
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