Sepioteuthis
New Member
Outside of brumation I have never heard of chameleons going without food for that long in the wild. Do you have any references?
R.I.P Osirus Postmortem Report
- Thread starter OACham
- Start date
Outside of brumation I have never heard of chameleons going without food for that long in the wild. Do you have any references?
This is part of the problem when you keep them in captivity if you want to get them to reproduce fertile eggs.
http://www.answers.com/topic/common-chameleon
"Specimens exposed to seasonal temperatures near freezing experience a dormant period (brumation) until temperatures become warmer."
http://www.answers.com/topic/common-chameleon
"Specimens exposed to seasonal temperatures near freezing experience a dormant period (brumation) until temperatures become warmer."
Julirs
New Member
The only reason I mentioned my degree was so that people would not be thinking, "What the heck does she know?". The mentioned issues are a very specific line of course study. Never meant to be thrown in someones face. The issue is more likely a huge lack of Vets that have seen enough chameleons to be experienced with their problems. If you haven't been keeping chams for years and you haven't devoted your studies to chameleons and/or traveled to study them in their native habitiat (like C. Anderson), how could you or could you not be a good judge of what a knoweledgeable Vet would be? And the diagnosis made was truly just a hypothesis as you mentioned especially without blood work and pathology. That is all that was said. This is a learning thread and this is not the first time anyone has disputed what a Vet has said. I am sorry that it has seemed like an attack-again-not intended.
Julirs
New Member
Only trying to help, was reading through old threads. Was this the same cham that fell repeatedly climbing the screen (for males looking for love the screen climbing is kinda normal). Same one that had orange poo in August? The cage picture you have shows very little plant material and a pretty bare cage. Did you see him drink from the dripper? There could have been a long term dehydration issue or an injury that just took awhile to manifest itself from the falling? I have lost a few, breaks my heart every single time, but I am surely glad I have had this forum so people could help me correct my errors and for the help in grieving. Don't give up-there are some gorgeous Panthers for sale right now.
Chris Anderson
Dr. House of Chameleons
OACham,
Unfortunately you've completely misunderstood my intentions. Obviously we are all, to a certain degree, at the mercy of believing what our vets have to say causes issues we have with our animals. Sometimes they are spot on and other times they may not be. When you work with animals, there is a lot of guess work based on the symptoms you are aware of and what others have experienced in the past. Unfortunately, the cause of death you outlined does not make very much sense to me based on my experience with chameleons and understanding of what you said. I'm not saying that it wasn't a diagnosis given in good faith as their best guess or that you are wrong for believing your vet's hypothesis. I am merely stating that I have concerns about the diagnosis and don't think it is the entire story. As you said, this forum is about learning and my comments are intended to express my concern as to the accuracy of the cause of death so we can help you figure out what the entire picture is. Very few vets have chameleon experience so I'm not necessarily faulting your vet entirely either, I just think an understanding of what chameleons fundamentally need and then the symptoms they give off when they don't get them could help figure out what really happened.
How long had the constipation, lack of eating and dehydration been an obvious issue before paralysis set in? Was your chameleon becoming lethargic, sleeping or otherwise inactive prior to the paralysis? What exactly makes you think the paralysis is connected to the constipation and dehydration in the first place? Considering his history of falling from the sides of his cage (https://www.chameleonforums.com/its-long-way-down-15190/) what's made you assume that the paralysis and death isn't the result of a fall and injury from that? Also, the enclosure you had him had far too little plants, etc. (https://www.chameleonforums.com/urgent-16687/#post138954). Was he drinking well prior to becoming dehydrated? My immediately thoughts looking back at threads you've posted is to wonder if stress from not having enough plant cover may have caused him to be wondering the enclosure and falling and this eventually translated into going off food and water, becoming weak and then falling and injuring himself causing death.
Again, I'm not trying to hurt your feelings but since this isn't your only chameleon, its important to get a better idea of what went on to make sure anything that was wrong is fixed for your other cham.
Chris
Unfortunately you've completely misunderstood my intentions. Obviously we are all, to a certain degree, at the mercy of believing what our vets have to say causes issues we have with our animals. Sometimes they are spot on and other times they may not be. When you work with animals, there is a lot of guess work based on the symptoms you are aware of and what others have experienced in the past. Unfortunately, the cause of death you outlined does not make very much sense to me based on my experience with chameleons and understanding of what you said. I'm not saying that it wasn't a diagnosis given in good faith as their best guess or that you are wrong for believing your vet's hypothesis. I am merely stating that I have concerns about the diagnosis and don't think it is the entire story. As you said, this forum is about learning and my comments are intended to express my concern as to the accuracy of the cause of death so we can help you figure out what the entire picture is. Very few vets have chameleon experience so I'm not necessarily faulting your vet entirely either, I just think an understanding of what chameleons fundamentally need and then the symptoms they give off when they don't get them could help figure out what really happened.
How long had the constipation, lack of eating and dehydration been an obvious issue before paralysis set in? Was your chameleon becoming lethargic, sleeping or otherwise inactive prior to the paralysis? What exactly makes you think the paralysis is connected to the constipation and dehydration in the first place? Considering his history of falling from the sides of his cage (https://www.chameleonforums.com/its-long-way-down-15190/) what's made you assume that the paralysis and death isn't the result of a fall and injury from that? Also, the enclosure you had him had far too little plants, etc. (https://www.chameleonforums.com/urgent-16687/#post138954). Was he drinking well prior to becoming dehydrated? My immediately thoughts looking back at threads you've posted is to wonder if stress from not having enough plant cover may have caused him to be wondering the enclosure and falling and this eventually translated into going off food and water, becoming weak and then falling and injuring himself causing death.
Again, I'm not trying to hurt your feelings but since this isn't your only chameleon, its important to get a better idea of what went on to make sure anything that was wrong is fixed for your other cham.
Chris
OACham
New Member
Ok, guys...I hope you realize that there are two people that post/reply on our name...We are Becky and Jordan. Jordan originally posted the thread and a few replies after that. Becky (that's me right now) I am the one that got offended by all the things that have been brought up. And I truly apologize. You guys are right, you have more studies in this than I do, than most poeple on here do, that our vets do......but I'm having a much harder time grieving with Osirus' passing than I thought---resulting in me "lashing out" on good people that don't deserve it 
Especially yesterday, it was just a bad time for me to have read all of this, things getting lost in translation...I'm emberassed actually!!
Anyway, the thing is, as you might get, you get wrapped up in what your vet says and finally make sense of the way you -think- he died, and then someone comes along and says that it doesn't make sense, that something's not right....and it's confusing. What you once thought was a good answer now is not, and instead of being able to finish grieving and put the death behind you, you can't bc it's running around in your head again.."if not this way, then how?" But really I think both my husband and I -want- to know why for the learning experiance, for knowing better for Aida, for warning others....but we're not ready for that yet. Or at least I'm not...
Julirs: your questions...The one with the orange poo was Aida. She's better now we think. Now the only thing we need to watch for her is the "neck chub" (there's a thread about that somewhere around...) Osirus is our guy, the one that fell.
Chris: your questions...None of the physical symptoms were obvious until a few days before the paralysis and as soon as we saw them we were on him with water and electrolytes, as we've had a chameleon pass from dehydration before. From what we knew, he was always well hydrated, he liked hanging from his dripper's tube..but we never -saw- him drink (we think he hid or would wait until we left the room). He was sleeping during the day before the dehydration was obvious, which is why we kept a constant eye on him, since we learned sleeping during the day was a sign of an oncoming problem. Your comment:
"My immediately thoughts looking back at threads you've posted is to wonder if stress from not having enough plant cover may have caused him to be wondering the enclosure and falling and this eventually translated into going off food and water, becoming weak and then falling and injuring himself causing death."
actually seems like a very valid point. Perhaps this was it...I think we'll never know though. Thanks for your thought processes and research from our past threads
Especially yesterday, it was just a bad time for me to have read all of this, things getting lost in translation...I'm emberassed actually!!
Anyway, the thing is, as you might get, you get wrapped up in what your vet says and finally make sense of the way you -think- he died, and then someone comes along and says that it doesn't make sense, that something's not right....and it's confusing. What you once thought was a good answer now is not, and instead of being able to finish grieving and put the death behind you, you can't bc it's running around in your head again.."if not this way, then how?" But really I think both my husband and I -want- to know why for the learning experiance, for knowing better for Aida, for warning others....but we're not ready for that yet. Or at least I'm not...Julirs: your questions...The one with the orange poo was Aida. She's better now we think. Now the only thing we need to watch for her is the "neck chub" (there's a thread about that somewhere around...) Osirus is our guy, the one that fell.
Chris: your questions...None of the physical symptoms were obvious until a few days before the paralysis and as soon as we saw them we were on him with water and electrolytes, as we've had a chameleon pass from dehydration before. From what we knew, he was always well hydrated, he liked hanging from his dripper's tube..but we never -saw- him drink (we think he hid or would wait until we left the room). He was sleeping during the day before the dehydration was obvious, which is why we kept a constant eye on him, since we learned sleeping during the day was a sign of an oncoming problem. Your comment:
"My immediately thoughts looking back at threads you've posted is to wonder if stress from not having enough plant cover may have caused him to be wondering the enclosure and falling and this eventually translated into going off food and water, becoming weak and then falling and injuring himself causing death."
actually seems like a very valid point. Perhaps this was it...I think we'll never know though. Thanks for your thought processes and research from our past threads
Similar threads
