Question on trust building with my veiled cham

[Dexter.]

Dexter is about 4 months old now. We have been working to build trust after reading the blogs. He now associates my hand with food. A few times when he is at the cage door area and looking out, I will open the door and put my hand out. He will look everywhere on my hand for a bug. Sometimes he sticks his tongue to my hand looking for the bug that isn't there.

My question is this. I know he has a strong association of my hand=mealworm. Sometimes when he's out for weighing/cage cleaning, he will look at my hand like he is searching for bugs, but sometimes he looks like he just wants to bite me. He even slowly lowers his head down with his mouth open/gaping and rest his mouth on my hand (almost as if he's trying to decide if he should bite or to see my reaction?). What is this about? Is that normal behavior? I make no sudden moves and just hope he doesn't bite me (he has bitten me a few times before). He did this again today, except was still in his cage. He was at the door, I opened the door and slowly introduced my hand (he has gotten really good with me being all up in his cage and just watching me clean up without hissing/running away). He looked at my hand for a minute, looking for a bug. He struck with the tongue but I had nothing on my hand. Then he decided to put his front feet on my hand. This whole time I am still. He looks around my hand with his mouth open (more like to strike for food than gaping) and then puts his open mouth down on my hand as if he's deciding to bite or not. He did not bite, and when he realized there was no food, turned around and went back to his branch. The first time he ever bit me was like it was in slow motion. Almost like "watch what I'm about to do" attitude. I guess I'm just wondering about this laying his open mouth on my hand part.

Also, do I keep doing this? I have often enticed him out of the cage with a branch in my hand. But lately I've noticed him "run" down the branch towards my hand as if it was a snack or an enemy to strike, and so I'm not sure if I should keep doing the worm or not. Every time he comes out, stick or not, I give him a treat, so I know he associates me with treats now. I assume that's ok. I just don't know about the biting and the laying the mouth on me part.

 

[Beman]

Hey there. I am guessing when you talk about trust building and blogs you are referring to my blog? this one? https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/building-trust-with-your-chameleon.2396/

What you are describing sounds more like being defensive. Now what I found in building trust with food is that yes they associate your hands and you with something positive. However him coming out aggressive like that it sounds like there is more going on or it is just his personality. The problem with targeting you is that if you suddenly pull back you can damage the tongue. So I would not let him do that. And I would not let him take a bite while your trying to build trust. Veileds are pretty much all over the place with their personalities. One I had named Bane was like a velociraptor straight out of Jurassic park. I worked with him the same why I did Beman and while I could get him to understand my hand meant food there was very little trust I could build with him. He would chase me out of his cage and I had him in a 4 foot wide by 4 foot tall and 2ft deep. He had the biggest cage due to him being my most aggressive that I could not handle or take to the outdoor enclosure. But I had to wear gloves with him to check weights because he would always go for me and use intimidation to try to show he was the boss. I also had Bentley that was kinda in the middle of the personality range but he was much more tolerant than Bane was. Beman however was a totally different boy and had the best personality. Don't get me wrong I had to watch him because he would target me hoping for food in the hands. I just never let it happen due to the high risk of injury.

Can you tell me how many insects a day he gets and what types you are feeding? Also can you show me a picture of the enclosure and tell me how big it is?

 

[Dexter.]

Hey there. I am guessing when you talk about trust building and blogs you are referring to my blog? this one? https://www.chameleonforums.com/blogs/building-trust-with-your-chameleon.2396/

What you are describing sounds more like being defensive. Now what I found in building trust with food is that yes they associate your hands and you with something positive. However him coming out aggressive like that it sounds like there is more going on or it is just his personality. The problem with targeting you is that if you suddenly pull back you can damage the tongue. So I would not let him do that. And I would not let him take a bite while your trying to build trust. Veileds are pretty much all over the place with their personalities. One I had named Bane was like a velociraptor straight out of Jurassic park. I worked with him the same why I did Beman and while I could get him to understand my hand meant food there was very little trust I could build with him. He would chase me out of his cage and I had him in a 4 foot wide by 4 foot tall and 2ft deep. He had the biggest cage due to him being my most aggressive that I could not handle or take to the outdoor enclosure. But I had to wear gloves with him to check weights because he would always go for me and use intimidation to try to show he was the boss. I also had Bentley that was kinda in the middle of the personality range but he was much more tolerant than Bane was. Beman however was a totally different boy and had the best personality. Don't get me wrong I had to watch him because he would target me hoping for food in the hands. I just never let it happen due to the high risk of injury.

Can you tell me how many insects a day he gets and what types you are feeding? Also can you show me a picture of the enclosure and tell me how big it is?

Yes! That’s the blog. It’s very helpful, thank you!

I thought I read somewhere that when you put your hand in, go slow and if they gape just be patient and wait until they stop. Don’t go forward or pull back. Is that not wrong? This is why when he does these odd things with his mouth I have not pulled away. I know sudden movements are not good. He has only once bitten me quickly, but that was my fault as something brushed his back while I was walking by with him in my hand. Other than that, he is always slow to bite. He has only bitten me 3 times.

If this is his personality, I’m ok with it. I mean, I know I don’t have a choice, but I understand that not all veileds will be friendly and I accept whatever we can get to as trust goes. If he is just aggressive, when do you suggest I wear gloves? Should I pull away if he looks like he is going to bite? Right now he’s small and the bite doesn’t hurt, but I know that’ll change when he grows. Is using the stick ok to get him out? He has not yet come out any other way. Once he’s out I can usually get him to walk onto my hand, and he doesn’t try to bite then.

He eats a mix of crickets, dubias, and black soldier fly larvae. His treat is a mealworm. He gets 10 “for breakfast” and 10 “for dinner.” He is currently at best guess 4 months old (I’ve had him since 1 mo old), and his current enclosure is 2x2x36”. I know he needs a bigger one once grown. I’ll attach a picture. Thanks for a thorough reply, I appreciate all the advice and insight.

 

[Beman]

So he does not look to be a 4 month old male. Can you show me a pic of him when you got him 3 months ago. I am basing this off that door width being a 12 inch wide panel and how long he looks to be tip of nose to tail. Roughly 8 inches or so.

Increase his insects 24 in the morning so he has time to bask and digest. See how fast he is taking them down. I am wondering if he is being more aggressive because he is just hungry still.

So I do not agree with shoving your hand into there territory this can trigger them especially if you have a territorial adult male. Keep your hand at the front of the cage. Go back to my blog and watch the video there of how I would lure Beman out of the cage with a treat. That is what you want to work on for being able to get him out when you need to. Now in the mean time always show up with an insect and make him come to the front to you to take it.

holding your ground is one thing but him having the opportunity to go for you is another and not one I would recommend because he is going to learn that he totally can do this behavior. You do not want an adult male latching on. When they go through maturity their personality can become more dominant and even aggressive. So dont let him learn that he can bite you.

 

[Dexter.]

So he does not look to be a 4 month old male. Can you show me a pic of him when you got him 3 months ago. I am basing this off that door width being a 12 inch wide panel and how long he looks to be tip of nose to tail. Roughly 8 inches or so.

Increase his insects 24 in the morning so he has time to bask and digest. See how fast he is taking them down. I am wondering if he is being more aggressive because he is just hungry still.

So I do not agree with shoving your hand into there territory this can trigger them especially if you have a territorial adult male. Keep your hand at the front of the cage. Go back to my blog and watch the video there of how I would lure Beman out of the cage with a treat. That is what you want to work on for being able to get him out when you need to. Now in the mean time always show up with an insect and make him come to the front to you to take it.

holding your ground is one thing but him having the opportunity to go for you is another and not one I would recommend because he is going to learn that he totally can do this behavior. You do not want an adult male latching on. When they go through maturity their personality can become more dominant and even aggressive. So dont let him learn that he can bite you.

 

[Dexter.]

This is the day we got him, March 30th. The man at repticon that we got him from said he was one month old. You are right-he is about 8” long (4.5 in body no tail). His current weight is 22g.

 

[Beman]

This is the day we got him, March 30th. The man at repticon that we got him from said he was one month old. You are right-he is about 8” long (4.5 in body no tail). His current weight is 22g.

Ok so as I suspected. The person that sold him to you did not have a real hatch date for him. The size he is in your hands is more like a 3 month old and where he sits right now on size, color development, and total length is more of a 6 month old.

This kinda lines up as well with how he is showing you he is boss with the gaping. Essentially you have a few months left to try to instill that you are ok and that he can trust you. You can see shifts in a males attitude mostly between the 9-12 month range. So no letting him bite you and always approach with food if you are showing hands right now. Until and if he gets to the point where he will just walk out onto your hand. Leave your hands outside on the perimeter of his branches so he makes the effort and so your not intruding on his turf.

And you wont want to hear this but with him being 6ish months you have to go ahead and get him into a bigger cage. This could help him as well since he has outgrown his current space. Just note some Veileds really do not like glass cages. They can see their reflection in it. This can make them more on edge thinking there is another cham in their territory.

Now as far as his weight. That is very low for his age (this is where a 3 month old should be hitting). He should be easily sitting more around the 50-60 gram mark. So my concern with his weight is if he is carrying a parasite load which is preventing him from gaining. I would get a fecal test run and make sure it comes back parasite free. I would also up his food intake to 2-3 dozen insects per morning. There is a small window for them to gain weight and grow. Right now you are in that window. It slows around 10-12 months and for a Veiled by the time they are over a year you will not see much more growth just excess weight gain. That is when you have to make sure they are on a strict diet and watching their casque and cheeks. You want them to be lean but muscular as an adult. But right now you can see his is growing... Issue is everything he is eating is going straight to growth and not muscle.

 

[Dexter.]

Oh wow! 6 months!! He was maybe 7-8g when we got him. He’s been gaining about 2g per week. He went to the vet-parasite check came back negative. This was back at the beginning when he wouldn’t eat with us dropping a bug in his gaping mouth (you can probably see that post). He now’s eats on his own fine. 2-3 dozen bugs in am….do I add more in the evening? He often doesn’t eat all of them I put in right away, so it hasn’t felt like he was hungry.

About the hands-I’ll do the bugs at the edge like you mentioned. I initially put my hand towards the back because it seemed like he wouldn’t go for the bug unless it was up close, but I will move them out to entice him to come to me. What about cleaning? I have to put my hands in to clean up daily. He doesn’t usually care at all. He just watches me from his basking branch.

Sounds like maybe I was being too pushy and not letting him come to me on his terms. He is fine with my hand coming in slowly next to him and doesn’t care (most of the time) but your recommendation is to let him come to me instead. I’ll try that as the whole goal is to have him venture out.

I worry about his weight being too low…I’ll definitely increase his feeders. Any other feeders you’d recommend I add in addition to what he’s go now?

Thanks again for all your help and advice—I find this forum (and the academy website) so incredibly helpful with not a lot else out there.

 

[Beman]

Oh wow! 6 months!! He was maybe 7-8g when we got him. He’s been gaining about 2g per week. He went to the vet-parasite check came back negative. This was back at the beginning when he wouldn’t eat with us dropping a bug in his gaping mouth (you can probably see that post). He now’s eats on his own fine. 2-3 dozen bugs in am….do I add more in the evening? He often doesn’t eat all of them I put in right away, so it hasn’t felt like he was hungry.

About the hands-I’ll do the bugs at the edge like you mentioned. I initially put my hand towards the back because it seemed like he wouldn’t go for the bug unless it was up close, but I will move them out to entice him to come to me. What about cleaning? I have to put my hands in to clean up daily. He doesn’t usually care at all. He just watches me from his basking branch.

Sounds like maybe I was being too pushy and not letting him come to me on his terms. He is fine with my hand coming in slowly next to him and doesn’t care (most of the time) but your recommendation is to let him come to me instead. I’ll try that as the whole goal is to have him venture out.

I worry about his weight being too low…I’ll definitely increase his feeders. Any other feeders you’d recommend I add in addition to what he’s go now?

Thanks again for all your help and advice—I find this forum (and the academy website) so incredibly helpful with not a lot else out there.

Yeah those are low gains weekly for a baby. So he is only eating 2-3 insects in the morning? A baby will easily take down 2 dozen insects within one sitting every morning. All 3 of my boys did this within about a 10-15 minute period. My concern if he is not eager to eat is if it is related to a parasite, they can come back negative as parasite shed in cycles. I would get another fecal tested to be sure. Or are the insects too large for him? You want smaller feeders. At his size no larger than a medium cricket. 1/2 inch sized.

How are you feeding him? Do you have a feeder run so he can eat on his own? If not full throttle feeders makes a good one.

You can clean the cage. And it is good if he is watching you.

Think of it this way you are a giant to him and a predator. So this is why I always recommend interaction with them on their terms. Never want to put hands above them or come in behind them and surprise them.

Silkworms would be a very good option and a soft bodied feeder that you can add into your mix. But overall it is giving him a feeding area like a feeder run that he can go access and making sure crickets and dubia are small enough for him to easily take them down. Switch out the mealworms for waxworms. These are fatty and are great for trust building but they also are really good with an underweight cham as treats.

The only way I can explain how eager a healthy baby will be to eat is if you have ever had a puppy or a kitten and you are giving them food and they inhale it. He should be going in on insects like that. If he is not something is out of place either how you are feeding, size of feeders, or parasite load.

Chameleon academy is an amazing site. And most of us here implement their husbandry recommendations so the forum pairs well as a helpful tool to understand the behavioral aspects. In my experience it takes a good year and a half to get used to their behaviors and feel confident in husbandry. Then everything flows quite well. But at first this can be an extremely stressful animal to care for. lol

 

[Dexter.]

Yeah those are low gains weekly for a baby. So he is only eating 2-3 insects in the morning? A baby will easily take down 2 dozen insects within one sitting every morning. All 3 of my boys did this within about a 10-15 minute period. My concern if he is not eager to eat is if it is related to a parasite, they can come back negative as parasite shed in cycles. I would get another fecal tested to be sure. Or are the insects too large for him? You want smaller feeders. At his size no larger than a medium cricket. 1/2 inch sized.

How are you feeding him? Do you have a feeder run so he can eat on his own? If not full throttle feeders makes a good one.

You can clean the cage. And it is good if he is watching you.

Think of it this way you are a giant to him and a predator. So this is why I always recommend interaction with them on their terms. Never want to put hands above them or come in behind them and surprise them.

Silkworms would be a very good option and a soft bodied feeder that you can add into your mix. But overall it is giving him a feeding area like a feeder run that he can go access and making sure crickets and dubia are small enough for him to easily take them down. Switch out the mealworms for waxworms. These are fatty and are great for trust building but they also are really good with an underweight cham as treats.

The only way I can explain how eager a healthy baby will be to eat is if you have ever had a puppy or a kitten and you are giving them food and they inhale it. He should be going in on insects like that. If he is not something is out of place either how you are feeding, size of feeders, or parasite load.

Chameleon academy is an amazing site. And most of us here implement their husbandry recommendations so the forum pairs well as a helpful tool to understand the behavioral aspects. In my experience it takes a good year and a half to get used to their behaviors and feel confident in husbandry. Then everything flows quite well. But at first this can be an extremely stressful animal to care for. lol

No, he gets 10 bugs at least in the am. He eats most of them, sometimes leaves some. Then 10 again in the afternoon. He loves the little crickets, and just recently the small dubias (before he didn’t prefer them). He will eat the BSFL but they wiggle the least so they seem to be his least favorite. He wouldn’t eat on his own at all when he first came home. He would gape and I’d drop a bug in his open mouth. That’s when I took him to the vet. Vet said he’s healthy and parasite check was neg. Shortly after that we got crickets and he loved those. Ever since he eats fine on his own. He has a cup that he eats the bugs out of. We tried the run feeder and he wouldn’t use it. If/when the crickets hop out of the cup he hunts them freely. I’ll try the feeder run again and also add in some wax worms. Thank you for the advice and help. I’d be so lost without these two sites!! I just want him to have the best care and the learner curve is huge!

 

[Beman]

No, he gets 10 bugs at least in the am. He eats most of them, sometimes leaves some. Then 10 again in the afternoon. He loves the little crickets, and just recently the small dubias (before he didn’t prefer them). He will eat the BSFL but they wiggle the least so they seem to be his least favorite. He wouldn’t eat on his own at all when he first came home. He would gape and I’d drop a bug in his open mouth. That’s when I took him to the vet. Vet said he’s healthy and parasite check was neg. Shortly after that we got crickets and he loved those. Ever since he eats fine on his own. He has a cup that he eats the bugs out of. We tried the run feeder and he wouldn’t use it. If/when the crickets hop out of the cup he hunts them freely. I’ll try the feeder run again and also add in some wax worms. Thank you for the advice and help. I’d be so lost without these two sites!! I just want him to have the best care and the learner curve is huge!

Your welcome. Increase the insects and add them in the morning see if he takes to them more since there will be more movement.