Purchased WC Chameleons?

[Texas Panther Man]

I try to only buy cb whenever possible. That said, I have purchased some wc's with mixed results. The males Ive purchased have all acclimatted for me and lived with me for yrs. The females, Ive had good and bad results from. They are much harder in my experience to rehab if they were given less than adequate care during capture & importation. Sometimes the only way to start a breeding group is to go the wc route though.

 

[griddle]

WC's to me are exactly as some of the other members stated, a last resort. My experience has been good and bad, I have WC's that are thriving and I have had one female that passed away even after the best care possible. I currently purchased two WC Diego Suarez's but just to establish a CB population in the states. I would not recommend WC over CB for a beginner nor someone whom does not have the time or resources. Luckily for me I have two thriving business's that allow me to be home and care for the Cham's that I truly love so very much.

 

[italian chameleon]

. However if the chameleons come in perfect to there final destination people may want to pay top dollar and not go through the problems of buying ten bad animals just to have two breeders.

this was the subject of my final year dissertation and from the survey results (remember https://www.chameleonforums.com/attention-please-questionnaire-reptile-keepers-72017/ ?) the majority of people wouldn't pay more for ethically sourced WC animals.
People didn't even bother thinking about all the issues you mentioned they were all like "why do I have to pay more??" or "I don't buy WC" or "it's impossible to implement because of corruption and poor governance in african countries bla bla bla". I still think it would be a great idea

Nonetheless, the survey was aimed at keepers of all reptile species so maybe cham keepers are more aware and smart (and beautiful and lovely ) than other reptile keepers and a sustainability scheme could be implement for chameleon if we all join forces!

 

[pamnsam94]

Call me crazy but in some instances, I'd actually prefer to buy WC. For some species, ideal husbandry techniques have not been established, especially when it comes to nutrition/supplementation. For example, with many montane species, if I can get good pics of freshly imported animals, get good answers from the seller to pertinent questions, and be reasonably confident that the chameleons have been well hydrated, I will often prefer an adult or subadult WC (partly because I may reach the goal of breeding the species sooner) over a very young CB animal, especially if I believe the seller and/or breeder, though well-intentioned, may have given too many supplements (especially D3 and preformed vitamin A). I personally steer clear of CB animals with edema, especially if it is particularly noticeable, simply because edema is frequently a sympton of temporary organ malfunction, or worse, permanent organ damage, often caused by vitamin overdose. Organ damage will often result in stunted growth and/or death. Buying a young CB of a species (those not established in captivity) that might not reach maturity at twice the price of a WC, might not be worth the risk when you can buy a pair of reasonably healthy WC chameleons for the same price, that is, of course, if you have experience in acclimating WC animals and if you are willing to spend all the additional funds (including vet bills, etc.) that wild caughts may require. On the other hand, if you can find captive borns of the less kept species that are partially raised (not too young), then that may be the way to go, especially if some of your primary goals are to raise young to maturity and breed them. Unfortunately, many species will not become established in captivity unless we have a good captive poplulation with an adequate gene pool, so we need more WC. Well-regulated quotas are a must though. No keeper wants to see wild populations depleted beyond a sustainable level.

Bottom line, if I were looking for a "pet", then I would definitely look to buy CB of a species well established in captivity. Since my interest is in breeding species not commonly kept and wanting to get them established in captivity, I will continue to buy WC for new blood. However, I can certainly learn a lot about raising neonates to adulthood whether I go with WC or CB. That is one of the biggest challenges, IMO, with many of the less commonly kept species.

Perry

 

[Motherlode Chameleon]

this was the subject of my final year dissertation and from the survey results (remember https://www.chameleonforums.com/attention-please-questionnaire-reptile-keepers-72017/ ?) the majority of people wouldn't pay more for ethically sourced WC animals.
People didn't even bother thinking about all the issues you mentioned they were all like "why do I have to pay more??" or "I don't buy WC" or "it's impossible to implement because of corruption and poor governance in african countries bla bla bla". I still think it would be a great idea

Nonetheless, the survey was aimed at keepers of all reptile species so maybe cham keepers are more aware and smart (and beautiful and lovely ) than other reptile keepers and a sustainability scheme could be implement for chameleon if we all join forces!

Ah thanks! Your agreeing with what I have been saying.

 

[DanSB]

...

Nonetheless, the survey was aimed at keepers of all reptile species so maybe cham keepers are more aware and smart (and beautiful and lovely ) than other reptile keepers and a sustainability scheme could be implement for chameleon if we all join forces!

I used to think Cham keepers might be more astute (or beautiful and lovely) but now I am pretty sure we're simply more masochistic.

Kidding aside there is a huge world, like Jupiter, of difference from buying a wild caught chameleon and a wild caught snake or many other wild caught animals. Most other reptiles are far better equipped to be ripped from their natural habitat, shoved in a little box with no food or water for a week and sent around the world. Ethics aside I wouldn't pay more for a wild caught snake that was collected by someone who knew what they were doing mainly because it would make little difference. The parasite load would be the same, chances of any other disease would be the same, and survival rates would likely be the same. Now a Chameleon that went a little too long without water, UVB, or was just stressed too much would have very markedly different survival rates from one collected and cared for better.

 

[nightanole]

Ill put in my 2 cents. What about WC in your own country? In the USA we have oust's, vieled's, jackson's, odds are a few others hanging around.

My only problem with CB is inbreeding. Veiled's have gown down hill since the early 2000's. Same with beardies. They buy a couple from the same clutch, and next thing you know...

Its kinda like the current stat of schnauzers. 80's schnauzers were built like tanks and lasted 16 years. Now adays schnauzers come off the line with all sorts of medical problems (prozac and diabetes medication mandatory) unheard of in the 90's.

PS: 30 years of small dog grooming assistant experience (when your mother grooms dogs out of the house..., you get to help)

 

[kinyonga]

When I first started keeping chameleons over 20 years ago all you could get were WC's. They usually came in in poor condition and it wasn't always easy to get them to live. Even when there were some species being bred in captivity I still bought some WC's to ensure that there was no inbreeding.

Leedragon...Are you suggesting releasing them in areas they are not native to??

 

[reefercheefer]

I prefer to get WC female panthers. cheaper, fresh blood, usually bigger and better eaters. I think its important as a breeder to establish your own lines as well. I also find it more exciting to see babies develop from WC's because you never know what you will get.

On the down side Ive had a couple pass away even with ideal care, and luckily months after laying clutches. But for getting adult breeders at 200$ each is a great deal since babies go for that and you are cutting out over a year of care, food and patience. Another down turn is not knowing what genes they are carrying until you grow out the first clutch.

 

[little leaf]

I can only say what I personally feel - I only wanted to get a cb Jackson, I went to a shop, and the owner told me they (the Jacksons) WERE CB - I purchased a female, then only to have him tell me they WERE NOT cb 30 days later, but wc - I was not happy about it- olny because I want to support the breeders, and leave the wild ones wild- but I also understand, you do need some wc to get that going - well, my little Olive just had babies - so now - am I a breeder?? lol
some are spoken for - and if I had 100- I think they would also be spoken for- lol I dont want to just "sell" them to anyone - they MUST go to good homes- if I sell them at all- lol ( and these are my first- so I know some may not make it )

 

[sittnlowon22s]

About to months ago i purchased a wild caught senegal..always wntd one so bought it ne ways. Even after everything that people say about wild caught. When i got him he was just all around khaki color or dark brown. First days i gave him pedialyte he was so dehydrated when i bought him, you could tell on his skin. That was just the first problem. After offering all kinds of food that where available i suffered the first week. knowing he hadnt ate ne thing. Still continued giving him pedialyte but still no response to crickets, super worms. meal worms, or spiders. He actually went 2 whole weeks without eating. Si i had it in my mind he was prolly gonna die. After nagging him for 2 weeks sraight to eat. One day he actually did, and has been eating like clockwork ever since. also his colors changed drastically. Hes a really nice green color with like blue chevrons. Really nice i think.

 

[gavriel]

Have you ever purchased a wild caught chameleon? Do you have any plans to do so in the future? Chameleon Forums believes that only expert keepers should consider purchasing a wild caught chameleon. They require exacting care to acclimate to captivity and a considerable amount of time and expense as well.

I don't have any plans or have ever purchased a WC chameleon. I agree that only experts who have the resources and knowledge to care for these chams should consider taking this challenge. Whether it be for husbandry research of new species to help the community as a whole, or help increase a population from a major decline in the wild. Also, if they are bringing a new species to the captive breeding market to curb the WC poaching market.

 

[ponderingky]

My only experience (so far) has been with WC (a LONG time ago). Neither did very well so I am going captive bred this time.

 

[spadefish]

I think there is a theme going here, if I an summarize. WC are not for beginners. If you've had long and successful experience with reptiles in general and chams in particular, then WC's can be a very good way to start a breeding project. Look at seeco (on the forums) who I think is now on F4 generations of his K. mutlis. That is quite a success story. I think CNorton has also had some great success with Matschei. Ferdy Timmerman had bred at least one generation of boehmei I believe. There are plenty of others who I am forgetting at the moment.

I have purchased both WC and CBB Kinoyngia species (boehmei and tavetana). I breed them for the purpose of increasing what is available in captive animals. It is not particulary easy nor particularly hard. If you meet the animal's needs, if you are capable of doing that, I do not consider it "difficult". The challenge is KNOWING based on accurate information, that you are, in fact, meeting their needs. Once you can do that, it really isn't all that hard. But, it takes time and patience and even with that, sometimes things don't work out.

I am lucky enough to have a local reptile vet. The first time I brought a cham to her it was an ill flapneck who came in to my LPS ill. They called me (because I am a sucker) and I picked her up, brought her home, cleaned her up, and straight to the vet. She had horrible scars and some skin abscesses. The vet had seen chams before from other people who had NO CLUE what they were doing and was dubious, but agreed to help. She lived for about six months after treatment --- and it was three times a day and hand watering and feeding for a few weeks. She eventually succumbed to whatever infection she had, but she was actually healthy and active and doing normal cham things for several months. WC's can come in in absolutely horrendous shape. Some are in great shape considering the journey. If you are careful and but from respectable importers, you can mitigate the risk.

The point is that if you have the time (and yes money) to put into it, chams can be very rewarding. Whether we like it or not, WCs are coming in to the country. There are just not enough breeders here to make CB's a reality for many species. Until that time, WC's expand the gene pool of what is here and contribute to breeding colonies. I do not think that WC's are appropriate for beginners or for people who do not intend to breed or to keep a colony. They can be fragile even in very experienced hands. It makes me wonder how all of those imports you see on Kingsnake actually do in the long run. Unfortunately, I don't think that overall, they fare very well. My .02.

 

[jknight]

I have purchased wild caught dart frogs in the past, they did well for me. It takes a lot of know how and experience to be successful. I voted no for WC Cham as for right now, but when I get more experience I would consider it as long as the animal was obtained responsibly.

For anyone looking to purchase a WC animal I would say please do your research and question yourself that you are indeed capable. WC animals are not cheap so please don’t waste your hard earned money and more so please think of the animals wellbeing.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Mike Fisher]

I start off all my breeding programs with WC. Even when I was breeding Veileds in the 90's. The WC I started with were HUGE. Had to wear gloves to handle the large males because of their weight and grip strength. Their feet were like vises on your fingers. I haven't seen any that large in the trade lately.

I thought I had established a good population of quadricornis before I dropped out of the hobby for awhile, but I guess not. I should have kept going but I got burnt out and assumed that the other breeders that I had supplied could keep them going in the US.

Starting over with some new species for me; Kinyongia Multituberculata and Kinyongia Matschiei . Got a few WC back in April and a few more today.

My advice, don't buy WC unless you have meds and dosing charts and know how to use them, a good microscope, accurate gram scale and are willing to keep a log book of everything. That or you have a very good herp vet on retainer. That's above and beyond the normal stuff like proper habitats and mist/drip systems.

Also, you need common sense because they are not pets when they get ripped out of the jungle. They are wild animals. They view humans as predators. It takes them awhile to get accustomed to human interaction, so you want to limit that interaction to feeding and health assessments for awhile.

If you want a pet, buy CB. The breeder takes on all the risk and responsibility so that they can provide you with a perfect specimen that has not been removed from the wild and has been accustomed to humans since birth/hatch. WC might seem cheaper, but it rarely is. All it takes is a high parasite load or respiratory infection that needs treated and the difference you saved goes out the window. More so if the animal dies.

Plus the fact that raising a CB chameleon from a baby to adult is a very rewarding experience.

 

[ibdragons]

I had a bad experience with buying a wild caught faly from thechameleon company. He advertised this wc faly, beautiful looking Panther and when I opened box at ups I got the second picture. I called Jim and he told me he got stressed out overnight. So now I'm more careful

 

[bobcochran]

Old man perspective

Years ago the only chameleons available were wild caught (adult or sub-adult). I would get them just after the shipment arrived from an importer. For the animals that were healthy in the wild and hadn't been held too long before or after shipment there seemed to be a honeymoon period of perhaps the first 6-12 weeks of captivity. The lizards would eat and drink virtually everything put into their cages and thrive. If, in this honeymoon period one could get rid of the parasite and protozoan load and the medication doses weren't too devastating to the chameleon, they could turn out to be good breeders. Even the best wild caught chameleons eventually became bored with the limited fare offered as prey/food and would go off feeding for varying periods of time. Recognize that's a lot of ifs. The best chance of a good outcome was to be able to look at the entire shipment and choose the healthiest animals. Many times the most colorful individuals were the most stressed out or sick animals with little chance of survival (learned the hard way). As to behavior, very few of the wild caught chameleons I purchased ever became as tame or comfortable around humans or being caged as captive bred lizards.

 

[aramnath]

I dont keep,buy or sale Wild Caught Chameleons.............I understand some are needed to introduce fresh unrelated bloodlines.For me i feel its not right to stick a wild animal in a cage. Captive hatched chameleons dont have to go threw any stressful ajustment to living in a cage.

Couldn't have said it any better. There are a vast amount of captive bred on many species, even Parson's!!!

 

[houseofchameleons]

I have purchased wild caughts in the past and although I have 3 now I wouldn't do it again