Possible very bad Vitamin A deficiency. Please help
- Thread starter Calypso
- Start date
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
Calypso
Member
After trying to give him all kind of feeders, I finally went to get some crickets and sure enough he came back to life. I don't know what the deal is, but he seems to prefer crickets to dubia, lobsters, superworms, butterworms, and even sometimes phoenix worms. I'll change his light out tomorrow if he doesn't have the same luster he did before he went to bed.
Calypso
Member
So this morning during his soaking he had another bowl movement. This one notably larger, but I did give him a ton of crickets last night. It had a weird milkyness to it you'll see in the attached pics. He's decently active today. He was doing great being completely mobile and when he ate a Phoenix worm he closed his eyes and seemed to fall asleep being inactive for at least an hr before I took him outside for some sun. I noticed him rubbing his eyes on a tree and then looking closer at the tree saw a hairy cover over the beaches. Hopefully that's not what's been bothering his eyes. His eye looks like it may be bruised from rubbing it.
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
what kind of branches are they? tree species?
Calypso
Member
I think it may be a ficus. Not too sure. Mean't to add an update a few days back. Finally got the vet to take a blood sample. It really pisses me off b/c I asked them the first visit over a month and a half ago with tons of time to fix anything. Now it turns out that his Phosphorus is almost passed his Calcium level. I've had to leave him at the vet since last Tuesday to keep him on fluids to try to flush his kidneys so they don't fail. The vet said it may be ok since it hasn't risen higher than his calcium, but I can't believe it took soo much money and soooo much time to figure out something so simple. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, and now my chams life is on the line.
Also, they weren't able to see anything in his eye ultrasound that looked out of the ordinary, but they did see a fluid pocket when he bulged his eye during the exam. Of course there should be some fluid, but they think it's way too much. They have been unable to figure out what could cause excess fluid in the cavity, and want to make sure its not blood of some sort. They've found very little if any writings on the matter, so if anyone has any insight on eye bulging. I will try to get xrays and ultrasound to post on here.
I've read some of Dr. Oz's stuff, and he seems to know quite a bit on chams. The vets here have little if any prior experience with chams and are looking for more experienced vets to help them with this. If anyone has any references, I would most appreciate it.
Also, they weren't able to see anything in his eye ultrasound that looked out of the ordinary, but they did see a fluid pocket when he bulged his eye during the exam. Of course there should be some fluid, but they think it's way too much. They have been unable to figure out what could cause excess fluid in the cavity, and want to make sure its not blood of some sort. They've found very little if any writings on the matter, so if anyone has any insight on eye bulging. I will try to get xrays and ultrasound to post on here.
I've read some of Dr. Oz's stuff, and he seems to know quite a bit on chams. The vets here have little if any prior experience with chams and are looking for more experienced vets to help them with this. If anyone has any references, I would most appreciate it.
Dr O
Veterinarian
hi calypso-
reading over various things, a few comments:
-with the Bug Burger use, i would doubt that this was a Vit. A issue.
-i completely agree that he was getting way too much UV. not that his body or calcium/D3 metabolism would be hurt, but his eyes certainly can be. have you ever heard of being snowblind? it’s the same thing; intense inflammation and irritation from the massive UV reflecting off of the snow without proper eye wear. the drops that you are using should be very good at making his eyes more comfortable.
-with a high blood phosphorus level and evidence of renal damage, i’m not entirely convinced that his eyes and high P are related at this point. i cannot think of anything that would really tie them specifically together, and would still venture that the overdose of UV (10.0 and 100w Powersun is a LOT) is the root of the eye issues.
you say you aren’t happy with the vet. but you live in Baton Rouge, home of my vet school alma mater. you are NOT going to find anyone better within the state than the exotic vets at the school who see many chameleons. why aren’t you there? particularly if he needs to be hospitalized. no one in BR can match the knowledge/tests/meds/ICU care that the school’s hospital does. i would get there ASAP and have your vet transfer his records over. and it’s also a team approach; although you would mostly be seeing the exotic department, the opthalmology department would come in for an ocular exam if asked, radiology, ultrasound, etc. it’s your best bet by far.
o-
reading over various things, a few comments:
-with the Bug Burger use, i would doubt that this was a Vit. A issue.
-i completely agree that he was getting way too much UV. not that his body or calcium/D3 metabolism would be hurt, but his eyes certainly can be. have you ever heard of being snowblind? it’s the same thing; intense inflammation and irritation from the massive UV reflecting off of the snow without proper eye wear. the drops that you are using should be very good at making his eyes more comfortable.
-with a high blood phosphorus level and evidence of renal damage, i’m not entirely convinced that his eyes and high P are related at this point. i cannot think of anything that would really tie them specifically together, and would still venture that the overdose of UV (10.0 and 100w Powersun is a LOT) is the root of the eye issues.
you say you aren’t happy with the vet. but you live in Baton Rouge, home of my vet school alma mater. you are NOT going to find anyone better within the state than the exotic vets at the school who see many chameleons. why aren’t you there? particularly if he needs to be hospitalized. no one in BR can match the knowledge/tests/meds/ICU care that the school’s hospital does. i would get there ASAP and have your vet transfer his records over. and it’s also a team approach; although you would mostly be seeing the exotic department, the opthalmology department would come in for an ocular exam if asked, radiology, ultrasound, etc. it’s your best bet by far.
o-
Calypso
Member
-I think I prematurely jumped to vitamin A as the cause of the eyes just because it seemed the like easiest answer.
-I had adjusted the lighting the last day I had him before I took him to the vet, and it seemed to get a good response. Although, my vet is pretty insistent that this is not the problem.
-The vets don't think they are linked, but haven't ruled it out yet as they have no idea what could be the issue or cause with the eyes at the moment.
-If it is a simple matter of adjusting the UVB, what do you think at this point should be our next step in helping his eyes get better? We are currently giving one drop per eye three times a day of Diclofenac.
I actually take all my pets to the LSU vet school clinic since I'm a Tiger myself, and have been treating Zeus there as well. My preferred exotic vet there is very knowledgeable indeed, but he said that Zeus was only the second chameleon the opthalmologist that did the ultrasound had treated (possibly just as ultrasound), and one of the few that he himself had treated. They have continuously been reading research on the eye problem, and have contacted other doctors that have more experience with the matter. Their resolve and dedication to curing him is unquestionable, but I just feel as far as chameleons go in particular, the current staff hasn't had as much experience with them. Chameleons are just a very particular type of animal, and have actually caused me to consider to continue my education at the LSU vet school as well.
I most sincerely appreciate your help with Zeus.
-I had adjusted the lighting the last day I had him before I took him to the vet, and it seemed to get a good response. Although, my vet is pretty insistent that this is not the problem.
-The vets don't think they are linked, but haven't ruled it out yet as they have no idea what could be the issue or cause with the eyes at the moment.
-If it is a simple matter of adjusting the UVB, what do you think at this point should be our next step in helping his eyes get better? We are currently giving one drop per eye three times a day of Diclofenac.
I actually take all my pets to the LSU vet school clinic since I'm a Tiger myself, and have been treating Zeus there as well. My preferred exotic vet there is very knowledgeable indeed, but he said that Zeus was only the second chameleon the opthalmologist that did the ultrasound had treated (possibly just as ultrasound), and one of the few that he himself had treated. They have continuously been reading research on the eye problem, and have contacted other doctors that have more experience with the matter. Their resolve and dedication to curing him is unquestionable, but I just feel as far as chameleons go in particular, the current staff hasn't had as much experience with them. Chameleons are just a very particular type of animal, and have actually caused me to consider to continue my education at the LSU vet school as well.
I most sincerely appreciate your help with Zeus.
Calypso
Member
I meant to add that the other day when on a visit to the vet school I took him outside to feed him. When I finally got him to strike 2 phoenix worms, he almost immediately spit them out as a sudden eye bulge occurred. I'm guessing the pain from the eyes is actually causing him difficulty to eat at this point. They had to force feed him today at the vet as his weight was dropping. Also, there are times when he appears to open his eye, but only half of his pupil is showing as the tissue from the bulge is still contracted into the cavity of the eye opening.
Dr O
Veterinarian
if there’s inflammation, an anti-inflammatory is what is necessary. they are purposefully not reaching for a potentially more powerful steroid at this point since the diagnosis is open and steroids can make certain diseases much worse, like adding fuel to the fire. so the diclofenac is the safest bet right now along with the elimination of the offending light source.
that’s too bad, and i count myself very lucky to have been there during the heyday of Mark Mitchell. he’s back in his stomping grounds in Chicago now, but besides being past-president of ARAV, many other organizations, and doing more research than i’ve ever seen one human being do, he was a good friend as well as excellent teacher. and his heart is firmly planted in the reptile world.
Calypso
Member
GREAT NEWS! So with fluid injection treatments to try to flush the kidneys phosphorus levels; we were able to raise the calcium from 10 to 16 and lower the phosphorus from 8 to 6. This gives us a solid 2:1 ratio, and maybe if it continues could even give us 3:1. They did inform me however that this is due to our own treatments to help revitalize the kidneys, and it is still unclear if they will be able to sustain themselves at this point. I can just hope for the best, and feed nothing but Phoenix worms. I'm also going to administer calcium glubonate orally everyday. If he continues to be unable to hunt, I will also be injecting a liquid diet.
The eyes at this point are still unclear. The most drastic/dangerous/ invasive treatment is to actually try to draw the fluid out via a needle as you would remove excess fluid from your knee. The only problem is under sedation the eye may not prolapse to make visible the pocket of fluid to be removed. In addition if the eye does move at all unexpectedly during the procedure the eye may become compromised by the needle misplacement. One option was a doctor in New York that can actually go through the tail vein and follow the path to the eye to take out the fluid. Similar to a heart stint procedure it sounds to me. Although my vet said it is very complicated, and in his opinion not realistic. Our best option at this point is to give him oral antibotics and deinflammatory medicine orally. I believe he said we may suspend to Diclofenac. Also, we may be giving medicines that could combat parasites that he says may have acted out of character (for lack of the correct term) and made their way into the eye cavity. Although the only problem I can see at this point to addressing the situation is that they are not 100% that the fluid is abnormal. I did mention that I would like to change my UVB to a 5.0 as well as replacing the heat lamp by a day bulb and raising the ambient temps to 85. He said that this animal is used to being exposed to intense levels of light, and it shouldn't be the problem, but that I could go ahead and try. He said if is in fact due to the light, that means the eye itself could be damaged, and I may still not see an improvement with changing the lights. We'll try to do our best, and I'll try to keep y'all up to date.
Again, I appreciate any insight anyone may have into the matter. Thanks for all y'alls support!
The eyes at this point are still unclear. The most drastic/dangerous/ invasive treatment is to actually try to draw the fluid out via a needle as you would remove excess fluid from your knee. The only problem is under sedation the eye may not prolapse to make visible the pocket of fluid to be removed. In addition if the eye does move at all unexpectedly during the procedure the eye may become compromised by the needle misplacement. One option was a doctor in New York that can actually go through the tail vein and follow the path to the eye to take out the fluid. Similar to a heart stint procedure it sounds to me. Although my vet said it is very complicated, and in his opinion not realistic. Our best option at this point is to give him oral antibotics and deinflammatory medicine orally. I believe he said we may suspend to Diclofenac. Also, we may be giving medicines that could combat parasites that he says may have acted out of character (for lack of the correct term) and made their way into the eye cavity. Although the only problem I can see at this point to addressing the situation is that they are not 100% that the fluid is abnormal. I did mention that I would like to change my UVB to a 5.0 as well as replacing the heat lamp by a day bulb and raising the ambient temps to 85. He said that this animal is used to being exposed to intense levels of light, and it shouldn't be the problem, but that I could go ahead and try. He said if is in fact due to the light, that means the eye itself could be damaged, and I may still not see an improvement with changing the lights. We'll try to do our best, and I'll try to keep y'all up to date.
Again, I appreciate any insight anyone may have into the matter. Thanks for all y'alls support!
Dr O
Veterinarian
fascinating case; though i’m sorry it has to be your cham…
personally i am still absolutely unclear about what is going on with the eye, and that’s through no fault of your own other than not being able to speak medical-ese fluently. so i can’t advise. however, they will happily give you his records or copy them directly to me if you like (particularly when you let them know i’m an alum) and i’m happy to try and understand what it is that they are seeing. if you wanted that, ask if it’s easier to fax or email and i can give you my info.
otherwise, assuming you are not flying to NY for a tail-to-eye aspiration (technology is amazing!), it sounds like you are likely going in the direction of some oral and maybe topical meds anyway. and (unfortunately) agreed about damage being possibly permanent; it’s like having a laser shined in your eye—if it damages the retina there’s no coming back. but great news on the kidneys!! they will always be cautiously optimistic there, but the fact that he resolved so quickly with some help only points in the positive direction.
keep the updates coming!!
personally i am still absolutely unclear about what is going on with the eye, and that’s through no fault of your own other than not being able to speak medical-ese fluently. so i can’t advise. however, they will happily give you his records or copy them directly to me if you like (particularly when you let them know i’m an alum) and i’m happy to try and understand what it is that they are seeing. if you wanted that, ask if it’s easier to fax or email and i can give you my info.
otherwise, assuming you are not flying to NY for a tail-to-eye aspiration (technology is amazing!), it sounds like you are likely going in the direction of some oral and maybe topical meds anyway. and (unfortunately) agreed about damage being possibly permanent; it’s like having a laser shined in your eye—if it damages the retina there’s no coming back. but great news on the kidneys!! they will always be cautiously optimistic there, but the fact that he resolved so quickly with some help only points in the positive direction.
keep the updates coming!!
sandrachameleon
Chameleon Enthusiast
wow.
Just wanted to say that I'm hoping for the best possible outcome
Just wanted to say that I'm hoping for the best possible outcome
Lovereps
Avid Member
It's always nice to hear good news!
I hope he continues to make progress in leaps and bounds!
Your vet is apparently unaware that in the past, other lightbulbs were proven to have caused serious eye and eyelid problems.
Here's a link:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-info.htm
FWIW, I have read of at least 3 other people over the past 3 months or so, who have used PowerSun bulbs on young chams and have had problems with their chams keeping their eyes closed.
I hope he continues to make progress in leaps and bounds!
Your vet is apparently unaware that in the past, other lightbulbs were proven to have caused serious eye and eyelid problems.
Here's a link:
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/phototherapyphosphor-info.htm
FWIW, I have read of at least 3 other people over the past 3 months or so, who have used PowerSun bulbs on young chams and have had problems with their chams keeping their eyes closed.
Calypso
Member
I want to start this post by thanking all of you for your support. It mean's the world to me to have members of the chameleon community backing me and helping me where they can, and since Zeus can't say thanks I'd be happy to help him. Thanks from Zeus. lol
When calling this morning to give me Zeus's update, I informed them of Dr. O's assistance, and of being alumni. They seem to be exploring every avenue, so I'm sure they wouldn't mind getting your help. I hope it wouldn't come to a flight to New York, but at this point after everything else who knows. How much would an operation like that cost? Just wondering.
Today they told me that he hadn't improved as far as his eyes and eating went. So we agreed to go ahead and keep another day since things overall are looking improved. However, once I did get him, as soon as he was in my hand he opened the left eye (possibly only/more damaged eye). He hadn't done this since last Wednesday so I felt already as if there was improvement. When taking him outside he seemed to be slightly more mobile at first, but then when taking him to a less windy location and placing him on the ground (always gets his eyes open and walking) he became very active. He even had a bowl movement soon after. His eyes opened up enough to mention. He was very active outside for about an hr or so. I then took him inside to warm him up as it was about 65 out.
This is when things got really interesting. He sat in his bowl for a soak like he missed it desperately (although I'm told they are doing them every day). After about 20 minutes of soaking he started to get more mobile. I then decided to do a slow drip from the faucet which got his attention big time. He lowered his head into the bowl and started gulping the water out. I was afraid he may drown himself in his weakened state so I lifted him up. He then started licking water off my skin and going nuts to try to drink as much water as possible. I'm not sure, but this might have been the first time he had drank by himself since they started administering the fluids by injection. Possibly a great sign? With the faucet still dripping I put him under it and he went absolutely nuts lapping up as much water as possible. Then there was a little cause for concern as his respiration increased for about ten seconds, then followed by mouth gapping on and off for about five minutes. He was making weird noises on and off with the mouth gapping. Kept sounding different. Maybe from getting the water down? During this time I continued to offer him the drip, and he would take it still pretty readily. I then lowered him back into the water to try to warm him up a bit. During his submersion, he bent his head against my hand and as it looked as it he meant to get just the dampness off my skin he got a mouthful of water. Almost immediately he hyper salivated against my hand. Just a super thick clear saliva, and about as much as I could spit up if I were trying (so a pretty big amount for him). Not sure if maybe he choked or something on the water, but his head never fully went under so idk. He continued to mouth gap, and drink water. I notified the student worker, and they took him back for evening treatment.
So with eyes opening with more ease, more mobility, and willingness to drink I feel like he is in fact improving physically.
One thing that particularly concerned me when he opened his mouth (which I also forgot to mention to student worker) was it seemed darker in comparison of the normal flush pink that I remember it being. There was even some yellow coloration that I don't remember seeing before. Could this be mouth rot? Possibly from mouth being continuously closed and not drinking fluids? Normal from treatment?
When calling this morning to give me Zeus's update, I informed them of Dr. O's assistance, and of being alumni. They seem to be exploring every avenue, so I'm sure they wouldn't mind getting your help. I hope it wouldn't come to a flight to New York, but at this point after everything else who knows. How much would an operation like that cost? Just wondering.
Today they told me that he hadn't improved as far as his eyes and eating went. So we agreed to go ahead and keep another day since things overall are looking improved. However, once I did get him, as soon as he was in my hand he opened the left eye (possibly only/more damaged eye). He hadn't done this since last Wednesday so I felt already as if there was improvement. When taking him outside he seemed to be slightly more mobile at first, but then when taking him to a less windy location and placing him on the ground (always gets his eyes open and walking) he became very active. He even had a bowl movement soon after. His eyes opened up enough to mention. He was very active outside for about an hr or so. I then took him inside to warm him up as it was about 65 out.
This is when things got really interesting. He sat in his bowl for a soak like he missed it desperately (although I'm told they are doing them every day). After about 20 minutes of soaking he started to get more mobile. I then decided to do a slow drip from the faucet which got his attention big time. He lowered his head into the bowl and started gulping the water out. I was afraid he may drown himself in his weakened state so I lifted him up. He then started licking water off my skin and going nuts to try to drink as much water as possible. I'm not sure, but this might have been the first time he had drank by himself since they started administering the fluids by injection. Possibly a great sign? With the faucet still dripping I put him under it and he went absolutely nuts lapping up as much water as possible. Then there was a little cause for concern as his respiration increased for about ten seconds, then followed by mouth gapping on and off for about five minutes. He was making weird noises on and off with the mouth gapping. Kept sounding different. Maybe from getting the water down? During this time I continued to offer him the drip, and he would take it still pretty readily. I then lowered him back into the water to try to warm him up a bit. During his submersion, he bent his head against my hand and as it looked as it he meant to get just the dampness off my skin he got a mouthful of water. Almost immediately he hyper salivated against my hand. Just a super thick clear saliva, and about as much as I could spit up if I were trying (so a pretty big amount for him). Not sure if maybe he choked or something on the water, but his head never fully went under so idk. He continued to mouth gap, and drink water. I notified the student worker, and they took him back for evening treatment.
So with eyes opening with more ease, more mobility, and willingness to drink I feel like he is in fact improving physically.
One thing that particularly concerned me when he opened his mouth (which I also forgot to mention to student worker) was it seemed darker in comparison of the normal flush pink that I remember it being. There was even some yellow coloration that I don't remember seeing before. Could this be mouth rot? Possibly from mouth being continuously closed and not drinking fluids? Normal from treatment?
ChameleonMom
New Member
I have nothing to add that will help but wanted you to know I'm pulling for you both! I hope your little guy overcomes what is ailing him! Big kudos to you for having the wherewithal to stick with him through this treatment. If only all Cham keepers were as dedicated as you we could eliminate (or make smaller!) the 'Health Clinic' section of this forum!
Keeping my fingers crossed and my interest piqued for further information! Best of luck!
Keeping my fingers crossed and my interest piqued for further information! Best of luck!
Calypso
Member
I wish I could have ended this story as a positive thread of how perseverance prevailed, but unfortunately the little guy could only take so much. After taking him home last week on Tuesday he seemed to be getting better and better as days continued. His eyes were beginning to open a little better. He even became able to open both eyes to move and focus in on things. I was so hopeful that it would be a long recovery, but it definitely looked possible. His second to last day he actually became very exuberant, moving all over his cage giving good grip and being very responsive and aware as he normally would have been under normal circumstances. I believe this was the final fighting spirit of chameleons that I hear proceed their end. The next day I woke up to see a severely dehydrated cham. Not knowing why, I decided to up his fluid intake orally from 3 mL every 6 hrs awake to every 4 hrs. He became unable to take in any fluids or hold down any of his liquid diet. After taking him to the ER he was able to fight for another 5 hrs or so, but ultimately Zeus, the god of the sky, ascended into the heavens.
We tried every avenue available to us, and with so many people's help were able to give him a tremendous opportunity. Chameleon's are just such a fragile species, as beautiful as they are delicate. I appreciate the many friends I have made here through this difficult journey, and hope we all may gain something from this experience. I know I have.
I will follow this up with posts of his exams along with ultrasounds of the eyes that had so many issues with closure, bulging, and tissue overlapping. The first prognosis was possibility of debilitating kidneys that ultimately seized making them unable to circulate water. Possibly from water that was ingested through his trachea that lead to water build up along the walls of the lungs making them unable to absorb oxygen. Possibly large toxin release from the antibiotics administered (very unlikely). These are just speculations made in the last visit to the vet. We have decided to do a necropsy so that we may finally have our answers to what took Zeus from us, and in hopes of learning from his passing.
I will try to post on here as soon as I have the results, but it will take a while. Thanks again everyone for your support.
We tried every avenue available to us, and with so many people's help were able to give him a tremendous opportunity. Chameleon's are just such a fragile species, as beautiful as they are delicate. I appreciate the many friends I have made here through this difficult journey, and hope we all may gain something from this experience. I know I have.
I will follow this up with posts of his exams along with ultrasounds of the eyes that had so many issues with closure, bulging, and tissue overlapping. The first prognosis was possibility of debilitating kidneys that ultimately seized making them unable to circulate water. Possibly from water that was ingested through his trachea that lead to water build up along the walls of the lungs making them unable to absorb oxygen. Possibly large toxin release from the antibiotics administered (very unlikely). These are just speculations made in the last visit to the vet. We have decided to do a necropsy so that we may finally have our answers to what took Zeus from us, and in hopes of learning from his passing.
I will try to post on here as soon as I have the results, but it will take a while. Thanks again everyone for your support.
Calypso
Member
So there are about fifty different quick shots from the ultrasound of his eye. I have no idea if I can even attach that many pictures on here in a compressed file or something? Here is what I have so far. These xrays weren't actually trying to focus on the bones, but instead the internal organs. We were concerned at this point that he could have had blockage from eating an anole outside on a tree.
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