Please help, gravid issues.

[jason93w]

I'll start by saying thank you guys for all the great information, you know who you are .
I have endlessly read through these forms and found a lot of info, but I'm concerned enough to reach out for you guys for help.
Problem being I'm worried about my gal laying eggs. I'll start with my info
Chameleon Info:

• Your Chameleon - veiled chameleon, female, In my care for about six months. Apx. One year old according to pet co.
• Handling - once or twice a week. Mainly to clean the enclosure.
• Feeding - crickets, wax works (one a week) superworms (small ones, once or twice a week) occasionally horn worms (rarely) sometimes I skip a day deeding. Maybe once or twice a month.
• Feed about ten crickets at 8 or 9 am. Sometimes three or so in the evening.
• Gutloaded with flukers cricket died, and cricket quencher. I recently started putting fresh greens in the cricket cage to.
• Supplements - calcium with no D3 almost everyday. Multi vitamin with vitamin A once a week, calcium with D3 once a month. Reptivite multivitamin once a month sometimes.
• Watering - automated mister for 10 minutes in the morning, and once or twice in the evening. Dripper filled up, usually dripping throughout the day. Letting the cage dry out completely about 3 or 4 times a day. Humidity around 40% with no watering. And spikes to 50 to 70% during misting.
• Fecal Description - healthy poops. Good white urates. When I first got her she pooped 2 or 3 big ones a day. Although I was feeding her as much as she'd eat basically.
• In the past two months poops have slowed down a lot, smalls ones usually once every two days. Still good white urate
• History - first pregnancy, been to the vet once for lung infection. Treated with antibiotics and cured up fine.

Cage Info:

• Cage Type - 2x2x4 screen cage. On shelf with screen bottom. So water can escape into a catch bin below the cage. Lights on top of screen. With once side next to a windoe
• Lighting - 10.0 new compact uvb light. 75w heatlamp. Adjustable wattage.
• Temperature - basking 90 105 degrees. Lower cage 70 to 80 degrees. Nighttime temps 65 to 70. I use a mechanical Gage from the pet store for basking and a digital for bottom of the cage.
• Humidity - about 40 to 50 percent dry. And spikes up to 70% while misting. But quickly goes back down.
• Plants - no live plants.
• Placement - top of cage six foot above ground. Next to French door for extra light. Opposite side of room as ac vent.
• Location - Wilmington NC. On the coast. Pretty hot and humid.

Current Problem - Cindy has yet to lay eggs and is very fat. Moving slower than usual and eating less than usual. Usually goes right after food, now not so much.
I noticed her gravid, bright colors about maybe a month or two ago. Brighter greens and unusual baby blue spots. For the past couple weeks she has been usually darker in color. I still see the blue spots sometimes. Have had a bucket in the cage now for a month filled with moist but not too moist play sand. And no eggs. The past week I've covered the entire cage up for privacy and nothing. Her cage is in my room. I'm at work from 8 to 5 usually. There is an iguana cage on the opposite end of the room. Pretty far away.
Getting worried about her being egg bound, or maybe I'm just parinoid.
Today I moved her to a temporary enclosure. A 4x1.5x2 plastic bin. With the same lights and temps as before.(turned down the lights) filled with play sand to one foot. In hopes she will lay. (Basically the trash can method I've read about)
She never shows any interest in the laying bin and I've never seen her dig.
She's getting just so big I'm worried. You can see ribs starting to just out. Wich I understand can be normal but still.
Just looking for advice. Hard to tell when she actually went receptive and gravid. The colors aren't as vivid as some of the pictures I see. Not sure if I should just wait it out and give it more time.
She has just been digging around the cage and very restless for so long now.
Thanks. Pleeeeease help.

 

[serenaj25]

her laying bin should be in her enclosure where she can go to it on her own terms. unless you notice lethargy, sleeping during the day, and/or 'phantom laying' then I wouldnt worry too much about her being egg bound. Put the lay bin in her cage and cover the sides and leave her alone for a few days and she will lay when she needs to. the constant intervention/moving her around is causing her stress. It is natural instinct for her, so as long as you have the proper lay bin inside her enclosure, trust her to do her thing.

 

[jason93w]

Thank you very much for the reply. She seems dark in color when I cover the sides of the cage. But I will put the bin back in there and cover it up.
So she doesn't look unnaturally large? Pretty normal?

 

[Brodybreaux25]

My gravid veiled, mated 3 weeks ago. I think your fine.

I also included a pic of my HD IP Camera I use to monitor her without disturbing her. It was only like $40. I can control the zoom and turn the cameras angle from my phone. It's worth the $40!

 

[serenaj25]

she doesn't look unnaturally large, but she does look like she is ready to lay.

 

[jajeanpierre]

she doesn't look unnaturally large, but she does look like she is ready to lay.

Why do you say she looks like she is ready to lay? How many females have laid eggs for you?

 

[kinyonga]

I hope you haven't missed her time to lay by not providing her with an appropriate place to dig iIN her cage. An opaque container at least 12" deep x 12" x 8" filled with moist washed playsand in her cage would have given her a place to dig to show you that she's was/is ready to lay so you wouldn't miss the so etimes subtle indications of impending egglaying.

Because of the amount you're feeding her and the basking temperature and from her size I think the clutch is large. I hope she can still lay them.

Other comments...since veileds are known to nibble on/eat greenery, etc it's recommended that you have real non-toxic well washed (both sides of the leave) plants in her cage.
Regarding supplements you said you use a vitamin powder with vitamin A once a week and reptivite sometimes once a month...do you mean the one you use once a week has beta carotene as a vitamin A source? You only need to use a vitamin powder twice a month.

Hope you can get her to lay the eggs. If she shows signs of egg binding get her to a vet ASAP. Signs...lethargy, sitting low in the cage, eyes shut during the day, phantom laying, etc.

 

[jajeanpierre]

@jason93w I'm not a veiled person so can't help you with colors.

I think your temps are way too high. My veiled would blanch if the temps outside were higher than 95F. He hated it above 90F. You do want to keep females very lean at with low temps to try to reduce the size and frequency of clutches because ultimately egg laying will likely lead to her death. It is really hard on them and depletes them. Life is hard on egg layers and the more they lay the more problematic it is for them.

Your female does not sound as if she is quite ready to lay. I've found when they are ready to lay they will be restless. Mine climb on the screen doors and it makes me crazy. If I don't have a bin in their cage and missed that they were gravid (the species I work with is notorious for hiding eggs and not looking gravid), they let me know by going down to the bottom of the cage and being restless. My species will also brighten up and become very colorful. I don't know what laying veileds look like right when they are ready to lay.

I know other breeders who do not put a bin in their female's cages. When they are ready to lay, they put them in a properly set up garbage can at mid day since most chameleons tend to lay in the afternoon. If they don't lay, they put them back in their cages in the late afternoon/early evening. Then they repeat the next day and so on until the female lays.

I have another species that I really have no feel for and the species hadn't been bred in captivity. I just kept them in a garbage can because I had no feel for that species and really couldn't read them.

 

[kinyonga]

jajeanpierre said..."I know other breeders who do not put a bin in their female's cages. When they are ready to lay, they put them in a properly set up garbage can at mid day since most chameleons tend to lay in the afternoon. If they don't lay, they put them back in their cages in the late afternoon/early evening. Then they repeat the next day and so on until the female lays"...maybe this works for some people but to me it puts extra stress on the females by moving them back and forth. It also doesn't work to suggest to a newbie to not have a bin in the cage and just rely in the person recognizing the sometimes subtle indications that the chameleon is ready to lay. Just my opinion.

 

[serenaj25]

Why do you say she looks like she is ready to lay? How many females have laid eggs for you?

I've had my female lay 3 times and she always looks quite large before she does so

 

[jason93w]

I doubt I have missed her time to lay, there has been a sutible laying bin I'm her cage for a while now. She does go all around the cage, top to bottom, climbing on the screen, for the past two weeks. I think I should wait it out a little longer with the bin in the enclosure, covered up. Any other thoughts?
I will also lower the temps.

 

[jajeanpierre]

jajeanpierre said..."I know other breeders who do not put a bin in their female's cages. When they are ready to lay, they put them in a properly set up garbage can at mid day since most chameleons tend to lay in the afternoon. If they don't lay, they put them back in their cages in the late afternoon/early evening. Then they repeat the next day and so on until the female lays"...maybe this works for some people but to me it puts extra stress on the females by moving them back and forth. It also doesn't work to suggest to a newbie to not have a bin in the cage and just rely in the person recognizing the sometimes subtle indications that the chameleon is ready to lay. Just my opinion.

@kinyonga and @jason93w I guess I didn't make myself clear. Since Jason thinks she is close to laying, I meant for him to put the female in the garbage can every day. He was already basically doing that in a tub.

Stress was a concern I had as well but the other breeder hasn't had a problem with it. Maybe @bobcochran wants to chime in.

 

[bobcochran]

@kinyonga and @jason93w I guess I didn't make myself clear. Since Jason thinks she is close to laying, I meant for him to put the female in the garbage can every day. He was already basically doing that in a tub.

Stress was a concern I had as well but the other breeder hasn't had a problem with it. Maybe @bobcochran wants to chime in.

Recognition is the key! I do not use a lay bin in any of my female cages; q. quads or f. pardalis. I'm not reccomending this, it's just what I do. I have my reasons. I move my cages a lot, especially the pardalis. I prefer lighter cages.

 

[jason93w]

Recognition is key, I totally agree. My girl looked very stressed and spent the whole time in the big laying box climbing upside down, searching for a way out. Very dark in color.
Needless to say she wasn't feeling it. I doubt she would have layed in there from what Ive read.
I've lowered the temps to about 85, kept the laying bin in the cage, and cover the cage in the evening. Just waiting it out. No one seems all to concerned about a problem, so hopefully she will have a successful lay!

 

[jason93w]

My gravid veiled, mated 3 weeks ago. I think your fine.

I also included a pic of my HD IP Camera I use to monitor her without disturbing her. It was only like $40. I can control the zoom and turn the cameras angle from my phone. It's worth the $40!

I meant to say thanks. Your pics put me at ease a little bit. Yours looks almost identical to mine.

 

[Brodybreaux25]

No problem!

 

[opheliaeatsbugs]

I know how stressful it is. Ophelia recently had a successful lay so maybe I can help a little. It was hers/mine first time and I learned a lot. I was so worried and stressed out. I did take her to the vet twice for x-rays because I was worried but in the end, the best thing you can do for her (IMO) is to make sure that your husbandry is as perfect as you can get it and you have a laybin. If those things are as good as you can get them - the only thing left to do is watch and wait.

Ophelia was constantly active the weeks leading up to the start of her digging. I had her laybin in her enclosure for about a month before she started digging. She was constantly climbing the screen but never showed interest in the laybin, or the bottom of the cage (which were signs I was looking for). Then, finally on May 12, I walked into my room and caught her digging. I immediately left the room and returned several hours later around 6pm and she was back in her basking spot totally dirty. I had some trouble with my laybin - the laybin had been in her enclosure for many weeks and had collected water from the automister. So when I peeked in to see her hole that first day, I noticed that the bottom was partially filled with water. So I quickly pulled it out, dug out all the water, drilled better holes in the laybin bottom and sides, adjusted the spray nozzles so they pointed AWAY from the laybin and put it all back before lights out at 730pm. I also dug her a hole and covered her cage.

The mister is on a timer, so I let that run each day and continued to offer her food every other day, or so. She ate normally. Ophelia did not slow down eating - I'm pretty sure she took a cricket into her holes as she dug for a snack. LOL. The cage stayed covered all day/night. I only opened it to feed her in the morning, then covered her again and left her alone. The misters went on/off as usual and lights went on/off as usual. This went on for a few days. I peeked once a day just to make sure my worst nightmare hadn't happened and she was sick/dying. She dug several different holes and worked all day then went up to bask in her spot towards the end of the day. So she dug around for a few days and then on May 15, she takes the day off digging. I checked for eggs and there weren't any. I took her outside for sun and she just looked beautiful. Same weight, same color. May 16 she starts digging again. This continued until May 26, she slept in her hole that night and came up to eat, she was totally dirty, so I hand misted her a little (she is still eating fine, acting normal, pooping, etc.). For the next couple of days, this continues, she digs all day coming up to bask, then going back down. She settled on one hole at this point and is in it mostly the entire day(s). May 28 I took her outside for some sun. This repeats until June 9th. She layed 56 eggs. Totally fine and everything is now back to normal. It was a long month.

I hope that my short story helps a little. I guess the moral of the story is... you just never know. I know it's difficult and stressful. But if you have provided everything to her, there is a wonderful chance all will be ok. If you haven't - you might consider keeping a journal. Days you feed (and what you are feeding), supplements, poop, weight, etc. It helped keep my sanity haha and also helped me answer questions when I reached out for help and/or questions from the vet. Good luck!

 

[jason93w]

Thanks man! Hoping my situation turns out as well as yours. I'll keep at it

 

[Kristen Wilkins]

Thanks man! Hoping my situation turns out as well as yours. I'll keep at it

Hi @jason93w i wanted tell you my story is pretty much the same as @opheliaeatsbugs with our girl Frances . Timing was 2 month Dec and Jan . We were so very worried . We waited well over a month past what we thought she would be . Then their was digging holes for days going back up to basking and starting over agin . Then their was sleeping in her holes , to decide that was not the right spot , then took a day off completely . Eating as normal all along . She finely laid 33 eggs . She was a bit dehydrated but recover just fine . Hope this helps as well .

 

[jason93w]

You guys rock, I feel much better hearing some other situations. I'll keep it updated