Pirahna in Florida?!

[james L]

Heres a list of non-native herps living in my tiny yard. Cuban tree frogs, greenhouse frogs, marine toads, house geckos(IN EVERYTHING),curlytails, knight anoles, and good old brown anoles. In the year i have lived in my new house ive only seen one native green anole! I have seen a few native snake species and some glass snakes(skinks). My point is that native animals are becoming a rare site in many parts of florida.

 

[jojackson]

It may seem like things balance off but they really dont. The reason being is that when animals grow up in the wild they inherit certain instincts and learn to evolve with their natural predators. There is a lot to be said about evolution, but basically the prey start dying off so the ones that dont die reproduce and their ability to survive against predators helps their population flourish until eventually the predator evolves etc.

However, if you introduce a new predator then the prey hasn't adapted to escaping that predator so the new predator can wipe out all those species. The same will happen if something is introduced that isn't a predator but still competes for the same niche another animal fills in that ecosystem. Then eventually one of them wont be able to survive.

Its not quite as black and white as that Rocky, Other things adapt to prey on invasives aswell.
Things find a niche and natives do adapt to cope. That's what evolution is all about, been happening for, well, forever.
Your Guam example isnt really a fair analogy given its an isolated island.

Natives adaption example

http://www.canetoadsinoz.com/evolutioncausedbycanetoads.html

http://www.canetoadsinoz.com/debunkingcanetoadimpactmyths.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC535375/

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/11/30/1250708.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/09/17/1198091.htm

 

[Minihuey]

I think this would be a perfect opportunity to use nukes!

 

[jojackson]

LOL yeah why not eh mate, 27, 000 years it'll be as good as new!

 

[panthercham]

Its not quite as black and white as that Rocky, Other things adapt to prey on invasives aswell.
Things find a niche and natives do adapt to cope. That's what evolution is all about, been happening for, well, forever.
Your Guam example isnt really a fair analogy given its an isolated island.

Natives adaption example

http://www.canetoadsinoz.com/evolutioncausedbycanetoads.html

http://www.canetoadsinoz.com/debunkingcanetoadimpactmyths.html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC535375/

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/11/30/1250708.htm

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2004/09/17/1198091.htm

You beat me to it...I was just writing up a post on those dreaded Canetoads...who's bright idea was that??

 

[jojackson]

\who's bright idea was that??


Some blokes who sounded smarter than the people who voted in their idea! (but wern't)

 

[Minihuey]

LOL yeah why not eh mate, 27, 000 years it'll be as good as new!

lol time will heal all the wounds

 

[jojackson]

Ach, thats what the doctors told me when they took ma leg, still hasnae grown back! Bastards!

 

[Rocky]

Also, I'm not 100% sure about how much of a nuissance they are, but the rabbits in australia aren't native

Also, this thread was about pirahnas and I was stating that it wasn't a horrible thing that they used a natural chemical (derived from roots from a plant in south america) to make sure that they didn't spread. Frogs and other animals may not all harm environments, but predators that breed quickly and devour anything that moves in the water are more than likely going to hurt the local ecosystem.

 

[jojackson]

No rabbits arnt native, they are a pest, but again, they are an integral part of our ecosystem now, prey for some, providers of micro enviroments for others (burrows).
Remove them and there will be impacts on natives.

My point is that human interferance often just makes matters worse, no matter how well intentioned.
P.S Its not a natural chemical in florida waterways. what else have they destroyed that they dont know about. The ecosystem does not end at macroflora/fauna.

 

[Rocky]

No rabbits arnt native, they are a pest, but again, they are an integral part of our ecosystem now, prey for some, providers of micro enviroments for others (burrows).
Remove them and there will be impacts on natives.

My point is that human interferance often just makes matters worse, no matter how well intentioned.
P.S Its not a natural chemical in florida waterways. what else have they destroyed that they dont know about. The ecosystem does not end at macroflora/fauna.

I've actually studied the chemical and what its affects are. It comes from a root, the only reason it kills fish is because it doesnt allow them to process oxygen properly. I have also studied the procedures in which it is introduced and they barely put enough in there to kill the fish. While the chemical may not be native there it should only affect the fish detrimentally. It will affect smaller organisms to a small extent, but they are capable of reproducing and will not be wiped out. Also, it's not like they were doing it in an important lake or river, it was a stock pond that is restocked yearly. Much better to take a loss at restocking it twice in a year than to have many ponds destroyed by an invasive specie.

And you say human interference makes matters worse and that is exactly true. Humans introduced the piranhas and they would have a very high possibility of destroying the natural ecosystem.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on how things work, however evolution takes place every day and when an invasive specie is introduced to a new ecosystem it forces that ecosystem to evolve. In most cases the invasive specie will not survive, but that 1% that it does usually means that the native species will be harmed. Each ecosystem has certain niches that an animal fills. No niche can be filled by 2 different species or one will out compete the other.

If a specie is doing fine in its natural ecosystem why do you think it would be necessary for that same specie to go into a new ecosystem where it has the possibility to harm another specie?

 

[jojackson]

when an invasive specie is introduced to a new ecosystem it forces that ecosystem to evolve. In most cases the invasive specie will not survive, but that 1% that it does usually means that the native species will be harmed.

Native species (its always 'species' incidently aka one 'species', its by nature a plural) will be harmed initially, but as you said, the ecosystem is forced to adapt, and most do, as in my examples.
But in many cases, such adaption has taken place before people realise there was an issue, then their attemps to 'fix' it, further unbalance things.

I really dont care about piranah in whatchamcallit pond, I think using chemicals to 'fix' things is the wrong way to go period, and they do use the same methods elsewhere.
You wont change my mind about it by regurtitating what you learned at 'nuking nature into line school'.
We try to adapt nature to us, but it should be the other way around. A good look at the world around you , and this becomes sufficiently self evident. No amount of well meaning tinkering is ever going to put things back as they were, and the act of interferance in itself, changes it further.

Each ecosystem has certain niches that an animal fills. No niche can be filled by 2 different species or one will out compete the other.

Again, it's just not as simple as that. I can think of examples, for better or worse where both species 'compliment' and rely on each other for survival in the same niche, usually where human interferance has already upset the natural balance. (and where has that not happened?)

If a specie is doing fine in its natural ecosystem why do you think it would be necessary for that same specie to go into a new ecosystem where it has the possibility to harm another specie?

I dont! It simply happens, as the story illustrates. I think prevention is better than 'cure', even if its an oxygen uptake inhibiting chemical 'cure' from the root of a plant in south America! *shrugs*.
This does occure though Rocky. Species reintroduction programs are sometimes forced to do so, simply because the creatures previous habitat no longer exist (or is threatened). Therefor a 'suitable' habitat is found where it is beleived the species will thrive and impact fellow species in the same niche as little as possible. A species may be doing fine in its natural habitat, but the habitat may not be doing so fine.

 

[graydon]

makes me think twice before going back into my pond