Phosphorus/Reptivite with D3

[UrbanChameleon]

Hey everyone! So far I have been using Exo Terra Calcium, Calcium with D3, and Multivitamin. None of the above contain Phosphorus and the multivitamin has beta carotene. Yesterday I purchased Reptivite after reading a couple of people use it. The two stores around here really don't have anything to choose from. They just carry anything Exo Terra and occasionally some other brands. Well I was looking at the bottle and it says it contains Phosphorus. I have always seen to NOT give your cham any phos. Would anyone like to explain why? I've read many posts saying not to give them any, but never an explanation.

Aslo, I've heard people say that chams can/can't break down beta carotene/Performed Vitamin A. I'm pretty confused on that one. Which one should my guy have in moderation? Either or none?

I would like to get RepCal since a lot of you have used it for years but I guess I will have to order it.

So basically.. please explain Performed Vit A/Beta Carotene. And also explain why Phosphorus is bad and what it would do to a chameleon. Can he/she have it in moderation or never at all? Should I take the Reptivite back? Thanks so much.

 

[kinyonga]

I'm not a vet...and the following comes from my own experience, what I've read and what I've learned along the way.

Calcium, phosphorus, vitamin d3 and vitamin A are all important players in bone health and in other functions in the chameleon and they need to be in balance.

Since most/many of the insects we use as feeders have poor ratios of calcium to phos. we dust and gutload/feed the insects to try to balance them.

Beta carotene is a prOformed vitamin A. PrOformed vitamin A has to be converted by the body as needed to be useful...so it can't build up in the body like prEformed vitamin A can...so using a vitamin powder with beta carotene won't lead to an overdose of vitamin A.

PrEformed vitamin A is just that...already formed, ready to go...goes straight to work and the excess prEformed is stored for future use and can build up to the point of being an overdose and lead to health issues...so we need to be careful when providing prEformed vitamin A. Preformed vitamin A comes from animal sources (its contained in animals/insects that have already converted the beta carotene to prEformed vitamin A or by eating an animal/insect that was supplemented with prEformed vitamin A) and from artificial sources like retinol, palmitate, etc.

Most insects have some prEformed vitamin A in them to do with their vision and some have quite a bit due to their diet, gutloading, etc.

D3 is needed for the chameleon to use the calcium in the system and D3 from supplements can also build up in the system and lead to health issues since D3 from supplements is ready to go. D3 from exposure to UVB should not build up in the system as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it when it wants to. Precursors to D3 coming from exposure to UVB become D3 as needed through some changes in the body. Since the D3 from exposure to UVB is not likely to build up in the system its better for the chameleon to be able to make its own. Because we don't know exactly how much exposure is needed, most people give their chameleons a bit of D3 and leave them to get the rest through their exposure to the UVB lights.

Vitamin A and vitamin D are somewhat antagonistic to each other and if not in balance cause health issues....so its important to provide them in balance with each other too.

Now, as if that isn't confusing enough...we have no sure way of knowing how much D3, Vitamin A, Calcium and Phos. that the chameleons get from what we feed them and supplement them with....so attaining that balance that I said was needed is not easy to do. The only thing I can say is that if the chameleon lives a long healthy life with the care that it gets things must be pretty much in balance...so if someone else does the same thing for their chameleon that is done by those who have healthy long living chameleons, theirs should live long healthy lives too.

I hope this is not too confusing and helps explain it all.

 

[kinyonga]

This might help too....
https://www.chameleonforums.com/phosphorus-59450/

 

[UrbanChameleon]

I'm not a vet...and the following comes from my own experience, what I've read and what I've learned along the way.

Calcium, phosphorus, vitamin d3 and vitamin A are all important players in bone health and in other functions in the chameleon and they need to be in balance.

Since most/many of the insects we use as feeders have poor ratios of calcium to phos. we dust and gutload/feed the insects to try to balance them.

Beta carotene is a prOformed vitamin A. PrOformed vitamin A has to be converted by the body as needed to be useful...so it can't build up in the body like prEformed vitamin A can...so using a vitamin powder with beta carotene won't lead to an overdose of vitamin A.

PrEformed vitamin A is just that...already formed, ready to go...goes straight to work and the excess prEformed is stored for future use and can build up to the point of being an overdose and lead to health issues...so we need to be careful when providing prEformed vitamin A. Preformed vitamin A comes from animal sources (its contained in animals/insects that have already converted the beta carotene to prEformed vitamin A or by eating an animal/insect that was supplemented with prEformed vitamin A) and from artificial sources like retinol, palmitate, etc.

Most insects have some prEformed vitamin A in them to do with their vision and some have quite a bit due to their diet, gutloading, etc.

D3 is needed for the chameleon to use the calcium in the system and D3 from supplements can also build up in the system and lead to health issues since D3 from supplements is ready to go. D3 from exposure to UVB should not build up in the system as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it when it wants to. Precursors to D3 coming from exposure to UVB become D3 as needed through some changes in the body. Since the D3 from exposure to UVB is not likely to build up in the system its better for the chameleon to be able to make its own. Because we don't know exactly how much exposure is needed, most people give their chameleons a bit of D3 and leave them to get the rest through their exposure to the UVB lights.

Vitamin A and vitamin D are somewhat antagonistic to each other and if not in balance cause health issues....so its important to provide them in balance with each other too.

Now, as if that isn't confusing enough...we have no sure way of knowing how much D3, Vitamin A, Calcium and Phos. that the chameleons get from what we feed them and supplement them with....so attaining that balance that I said was needed is not easy to do. The only thing I can say is that if the chameleon lives a long healthy life with the care that it gets things must be pretty much in balance...so if someone else does the same thing for their chameleon that is done by those who have healthy long living chameleons, theirs should live long healthy lives too.

I hope this is not too confusing and helps explain it all.

You really hit the mark! Thank you so much! I was extremely confused on the Vitamin A subject. I guess there is a controversy going on online about what they need exactly and how much. Honestly, I feel like the Exo Terra supplements seem like a safer bet after you explained it. Compared to other products it seems like the D3 and beta carotene are lower in the Exo Terra supplements. As smart as I am.. I've never been good chemistry and those types of things. Now that someone has broken it down for me, I have a clear picture of how it works. I'm sure my cham will surely benefit from your help. We both thank you.

 

[kinyonga]

Here's some more information I hope will help you ....
Appropriate cage temperatures aid in digestion and thus play a part indirectly in nutrient absorption.

Exposure to UVB from either direct sunlight or a proper UVB light allows the chameleon to produce D3 so that it can use the calcium in its system to make/keep the bones strong and be used in other systems in the chameleon as well. The UVB should not pass through glass or plastic no matter whether its from the sun or the UVB light. The most often recommended UVB light is the long linear fluorescent Repti-sun 5.0 tube light. Some of the compacts, spirals and tube lights have caused health issues, but so far there have been no bad reports against this one.

A wide variety of insects that have been well fed and gutloaded should be fed to it.

Since many of the feeder insects we use in captivity have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorus in them, its important to dust the insects just before you feed them to the chameleon at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder to help make up for it. (I use Rep-cal phosphorus-free calcium).

If you also dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder it will ensure that your chameleon gets some D3 without overdoing it. It leaves the chameleon to produce the rest of what it needs through its exposure to the UVB light. D3 from supplements can build up in the system but D3 produced from exposure to UVB shouldn't as long as the chameleon can move in and out of it. (I use Rep-cal phos.-free calcium/D3).

Dusting twice a month as well with a vitamin powder that contains a beta carotene (prOformed) source of vitamin A will ensure that the chameleon gets some vitamins without the danger of overdosing the vitamin A. PrEformed sources of vitamin A can build up in the system and may prevent the D3 from doing its job and push the chameleon towards MBD. However, there is controversy as to whether all/any chameleons can convert the beta carotene and so some people give some prEformed vitamin A once in a while. (I use herptivite which has beta carotene.)

Gutloading/feeding the insects well helps to provide what the chameleon needs. I gutload crickets, roaches, locusts, superworms, etc. with an assortment of greens (dandelions, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, zucchini, etc.)

Calcium, phos., D3 and vitamin A are important players in bone health and other systems in the chameleon (muscles, etc.) and they need to be in balance. When trying to balance them, you need to look at the supplements, what you feed the insects and what you feed the chameleon.
Please note that various supplements have various amounts of D3 and vitamin A and so some can be given more often than others. The idea still is not to overdo the fat soluble vitamins like D3 and prEformed vitamin A.

Here are some good sites for you to read too...
http://chameleonnews.com/07FebWheelock.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200605020...Vitamin.A.html
http://web.archive.org/web/200406080...d.Calcium.html
http://www.uvguide.co.uk/
http://web.archive.org/web/200601140...ww.adcham.com/
If you can't access the sites above that have the word "archive" in you can do it through the WayBackMachine.