Petition to stop Petco from killing Chameleons!

That's awesome, I was actually thinking of this very thing after a discussion with a Petco assistant manager regarding their chameleon husbandry, which she informed me is a corporately directed process designed by their corporate vet. So even though they may know in the stores that it is wrong there is nothing they can do about it. They had a female jackson and some baby veileds housed together with a few bendy vines for them to climb. They had a dripper but it was in the dirt and there was a large water bowl that the jax was sitting on with her eyes closed. I told the manager that the jax sitting there with eyes closed was a sign that it was unwell and she told me that it had just been cleared by the vet for sale! Interestingly I know the vet of whom she spoke and have even taken my beardie to her. I may call Monday and ask if she really cleared the animal or perhaps she needs to see it again as it does not look well.
 
I'm conflicted, and here's why. I want to sign the petition. I agree with (almost) everything you've written. I've declined to participate for the following reasons:

We are passionate about chameleons. No one should apologize for that. However, the language of the petition is a bit melodramatic.

I think what this petition needs is a logical, organized critique of chameleon care from a documented sampling of store locations. It should go through the Petco distributed care sheet item by item to discuss a) the short comings of the care sheets and b) how their own care does not comply with the care sheets. It's important to document conditions at as many stores as possible to show that it's an issue with company-wide policy, not the short comings of a few bad stores.

We also need to discuss how they don't carry the appropriate supplies for setting up or maintaining chameleons. Since big box pet stores make the majority of their money from "dry goods" and supplies for impulse animal purchases, any criticisms/suggestions for changes have to make economic sense or they will be ignored. If they are making money selling chameleons, we should want to help them do that responsibly, not prevent it.

(It's also not just the reptiles - I know you can't save the world all at once, but the care conditions of the birds and small mammals are just as bad - in some cases, even horrendous. I'm sure fish enthusiasts have very few good things to say on their end either.)

Please don't take this as a personal attack or me standing on a soapbox. I am 100% behind the purpose of the petition. I think the execution needs to be a bit less emotional, more data-driven, and more detailed/specific. With an approach like this, I am concerned it will be disregarded by the decision makers at these big chain companies.

This is something Chameleon Forums can do! We could put together a task force to do the necessary research and legwork and polish the petition. I would be willing to volunteer. Maybe we can get something together?
 
Lathis said:
I'm conflicted, and here's why. I want to sign the petition. I agree with (almost) everything you've written. I've declined to participate for the following reasons:

We are passionate about chameleons. No one should apologize for that. However, the language of the petition is a bit melodramatic.

I think what this petition needs is a logical, organized critique of chameleon care from a documented sampling of store locations. It should go through the Petco distributed care sheet item by item to discuss a) the short comings of the care sheets and b) how their own care does not comply with the care sheets. It's important to document conditions at as many stores as possible to show that it's an issue with company-wide policy, not the short comings of a few bad stores.

We also need to discuss how they don't carry the appropriate supplies for setting up or maintaining chameleons. Since big box pet stores make the majority of their money from "dry goods" and supplies for impulse animal purchases, any criticisms/suggestions for changes have to make economic sense or they will be ignored. If they are making money selling chameleons, we should want to help them do that responsibly, not prevent it.

(It's also not just the reptiles - I know you can't save the world all at once, but the care conditions of the birds and small mammals are just as bad - in some cases, even horrendous. I'm sure fish enthusiasts have very few good things to say on their end either.)

Please don't take this as a personal attack or me standing on a soapbox. I am 100% behind the purpose of the petition. I think the execution needs to be a bit less emotional, more data-driven, and more detailed/specific. With an approach like this, I am concerned it will be disregarded by the decision makers at these big chain companies.

This is something Chameleon Forums can do! We could put together a task force to do the necessary research and legwork and polish the petition. I would be willing to volunteer. Maybe we can get something together?
Click to expand...

I agree with you about the language, but I signed it anyway. I do think that a well organized and written data driven petition may get more attention from the corporate offices. They are after all the ones who drive the policies. It could also incorporate how the practices contradict their vision or mission statement. Also I think it would be beneficial if it was presented to them that proper care and instruction to their customers could be just as profitable. I know the supplies I have purchased are not cheap and if they could embrace the thought of continued business from customers who are successfully keeping their animals maybe they would be willing to change. We all know that one chameleon is never enough!
I am not sure that Chameleon Forums is the proper format for this endeavor though and would want to hear what the forum adminisitrators think about this. We are a huge community and perhaps can find some way to improve the information provided by these companies to their customers.
In my encounter today, the assistant manager was rather miffed that I indicated the driving force behind their existence is profit. She was not really being unreasonable but her hands are tied due to corporate policy. They did immediately attend to correcting the placement of the dripper tubing and seemed genuinely concerned for the animals. I mean they (the employees) are not bad people but neither are they educated correctly in the husbandry of a lot of their animals. And in their defense, they work retail for a wage to pay bills. I am a professional nurse with an advanced degree but if my work did not pay me I would move on. Maybe we should not approach them as adversaries but allies who are passionate about the proper care of these wonderful animals. I would be willing to help as well.
 
ridgebax1 said:
I am not sure that Chameleon Forums is the proper format for this endeavor though and would want to hear what the forum adminisitrators think about this.
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That's a good thought.

This effort wouldn't necessarily have to be sponsored or supported by CF, though, if the forum would like to remain uninvolved. Several of us could work together outside the framework of the forum. If the administrators decide that it should be a forum-sponsored effort, i think that would lend a lot of "weight" and value to the petition. I would encourage the administrators to discuss and let us know your position on this idea.

I don't want us to delude ourselves though - to do this correctly isn't going to be a few hours of work and email off a note to "[email protected]". It could take several weeks to several months to get all the data together, visit sites, and craft a detailed petition. We will probably need a core of 3-4 dedicated people and numerous others that help out with store visits across the country.

It could be a really great way to give back to the community at large.
 
ridgebax1 said:
I mean they (the employees) are not bad people but neither are they educated correctly in the husbandry of a lot of their animals. And in their defense, they work retail for a wage to pay bills.
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I absolutely agree with you on this. I believe that most people who end up working at pet stores do so because they have an underlying love for animals... but you've hit it on the head - it's a job not a volunteer effort.

Things that would need to be kept in mind are that 1) the pet store environment is inherently a temporary home and that 2) the care labor has to be in line with wage costs. I actually think pet stores create "labor debt" with their standard enclosures - cleaning glass, replacing wood chips, water bowls... all require time/effort that is unnecessary for a properly-set up chameleon enclosure.
 
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Olimpia said:
What data are you looking for specifically?
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I'm envisioning our "data" would be a survey of chameleon care at stores across the country. Not difficult, but it does require leg work from volunteers.

Otherwise, it would primarily involve preparing a response to address the care sheets and observed issues.
 
I think that everyone who is looking at this and has issue with the whole big box issue with Chameleons needs to understand a few things.

1. The 100 or so signatures that may be garnered via this petition is not going to budge or change what they do. As I mentioned in another posts weeks ago, the live animal portion of their business is 4% of net sales, and is not a big priority of theirs. I do think that their core business model is that they will take care of the animals (I have seen them take reptiles to the local exotic vet that they could not deal with), but the cost associated with a mass change in husbandry as well as adding SKU's for new inventory would cost millions. They are not going to spend multi millions to reset the facilities and then retrain the employees for our handful of signatures.

2. As passionate as we are about Chameleons while we strive for perfection in their care, you must understand that in the world of people purchasing reptiles in mass, we are literally the 1%. Point is, we on this forum can make as much noise as we want, but it will not show up on the radar of the 10's of thousands of animals that these chains sell annually.

3. Here is where I will really blow your mind. Petsmart and PetCo are the best thing to happen to the reptile industry including Chameleons. Have your attention yet? These big box stores are the introduction to keeping reptiles for the vast majority of keepers in this country. Invariably, once they get the reptile (sometimes once there is an issue), they will then look for online resources to care for them leading them to sites like this which wil advance them in the hobby. It is VERY rare that a first time keeper will seek out a local breeder to buy their first animal.

Point is, without the big boxes selling these animals, the trade would nearly dry up leaving a very small grp of people (read us) unable to support a trade.

To sum it up, it is true that their husbandry is not spot on, but it is also not realistic that they can set up full blown proper set ups for chameleons that represent less than .01% of their total sales. That is not a good return on investment.

The same goes for proper training of employees. The cost to ensure proper and consistent training specific for ALL species ( they work all of them remember) for minimum wage employees with nearly 200%+ turnover is near impossible (I have 500 employees myself) so you must manage to the lowest common denominator.

Finally, the bad stories for the most part are the exception. We see these horror stories pop up a couple times a month but understand that between the 2 brands there are nearly 6000 units. Not a bad record really.

If you want to have an intelligent conversation about this topic, you must remove the emotion that some of you have when you see an animal that is not in great condition.

Speak to the manager about it, offer to help, but understand that for most people working, that one chameleon is low on the list of the fires they have to deal with that day.

I hope no one mistakes my comments for not caring, that is not the case. My solution is to choose not to shop there. If you do, and you complain about this, you are a hypocrite as you are supporting them.

But before we light the torches and grab the pitchforks, perspective may be the better part of valor.
 
While I agree it is a complicated issue, I think that it's obvious that many chameleons are suffering. Blame should not be put to individual employees, as they cannot help the treatment the chams are getting. And not having spot on husbandry is an understatement. The ones I saw were kept in tiny glass boxes, without a dripper and no ventilation, as well as substrate on the bottom. From what I've observed online, this is the norm for chameleons throughout the continent in major pet stores. The smaller local based shops treat their chams better from what I've seen, so it's a direct result of large corporations. Now while it's true the pet shops like these do introduce some people to keeping reptiles, many others come through other means. I bought my first cham from a breeder in Ontario, and did months of research and preperation beforehand. I've never kept another reptile before, though I have captured and kept an impressive ammount of native amphibians. People who enjoy keeping reptiles/amphibians and know the rules about keeping them/handling them are the kind of people this community needs. What we don't want is someone who saw a chameleon at a pet store, then bought it on impulse and is unable to care for it. My emotions may be clouding my judgement though... Whenever I look at my cham and then think about those poor, sick babies at Petsmart... So sad :( On another note, you employ 500 people? What do you do for a living?
 
Thank you for the thoughtful response, I will respond with my thoughts on that:

1. I dont know that it is obvious that many are 'suffering'. My local petco does a decent job. I will maintain that 1. these issues are the exceptions, and 2. not adhering to exceptional care does not preclude suffering.

2. Issues like no substrate are due to the MASS complaints they get from the general public that there is 'no substrate' and that their enclosures are bare and not hospitable. Try having an employee explain the details as to why we shouldn't to dozens of general public a week.

3. It is true that these issues are indicative of large chain stores. This is because their goal is profit. Many 'mom and pop' stores do a mcuh better job for sure. It is also true that more than 60% of those mom and pop stores go out of business each year because they operate unintentionally as a 'non profit'

4. "Now while it's true the pet shops like these do introduce some people to keeping reptiles, many others come through other means. I bought my first cham from a breeder in Ontario, and did months of research and preperation beforehand."

I have no doubt you did as you are very passionate about this, but again, you represent the 1%, literally. 'Many others' do not come from other means. 99% come from retail stores with the majority of that being big box retail.

5. "People who enjoy keeping reptiles/amphibians and know the rules about keeping them/handling them are the kind of people this community needs. What we don't want is someone who saw a chameleon at a pet store, then bought it on impulse and is unable to care for it."

Then this hobby will die. We are all foolish to think that we at this level are self sustaining. We need people to come here seeking answers, to issues sometimes, and then once they find success, they move forward in the hobby at which point they WILL buy from local breeders.

6. "My emotions may be clouding my judgement though... Whenever I look at my cham and then think about those poor, sick babies at Petsmart."

I agree and it is the reason I dont go in there.

7. "On another note, you employ 500 people? What do you do for a living?"

I am a regional VP for a national restaurant chain of who's name I will not share. :D

Again, thanks for a good conversation.
 
Another interesting fact for the curious reader.

Any thoughts as to what would happen to our hobby if the big chain stores stopped selling chameleons?

It would kill the local breeders (many on this forum).

Consider a breeder who has lets say 4 female panthers and breeds them 2x a year (a small, basement breeder). That is 8 clutches of on average 20 babies, 160 babies a year. You dont really think they sell all of those here on the forums or at shows. No, they will set aside the top 20-30% to sell for top dollar to discerning hobbyists and then sell teh rest to distributors. This is where the big chains then get their livestock.

If that supply chain dried up, I can assure the options for local breeders would dry up as well.

This is primarily in regards to the big three most commonly kept species.

Again, another example of how the big chain stores further this 'hobby'
 
You know I was thinking just that. About what would happen if the big stores stopped selling reptiles, chams in particular as they are for want of better words, an unusual lizard. They are not something you see everyday. It is certainly a dilemma, and one that has many facets and lots of emotions.
As far as comparing the stores Petco/Petsmart, at least the Petco asst manager to whom I was speaking with today told me that the set-ups for their chameleons are to be the same in every store. The corporate vet determines how the animals are kept and the company policy established by this vet is to be followed without variation in all the stores. I was concerned about the huge water bowl in the enclosure with the baby veileds and the possibility of them drowning. They are not permitted to remove these bowls and are also not permitted to put rocks in them to reduce the depth of the water. There was a bit of a plant in the bowl that was for them to use to climb out if they fell in. They are also required to have a red heat lamp on at night.
 
If you have a local shop in your area, support it and stop going to petco. In a medium sized city near me there used to be 7 locally owned petshops. Each of these shops supported a local business owner's family and had a specialty or two- whether it was birds, or reptiles, or saltwater fish or cichlids or whatever. Now there is only petsmart and petco...

You want to know why the american economy can't recover? It's because we keep trading quality and locally owned businesses for these mega corporations who sell cheap stuff cheap...
 
Thanks for the response! I see now that the issue is more complex than just a uncaring corporation. As with most things in life, it's complicated. From what I've heard, petco takes better care of it's chams than Pet Smart. Again, it could just be my store, does anyone here have any experience with Pet Smart Chams? And I'd love to adopt them all, but I've got my hands full with my first cham. He eats so many crickets that it's hard to keep up. Any ideas how to breed crickets/get them cheaper? I can't use mealworms yet, he's only 3 months old and still too small.
 
fluxlizard said:
You want to know why the american economy can't recover? It's because we keep trading quality and locally owned businesses for these mega corporations who sell cheap stuff cheap...
Click to expand...

I'd beg to differ. Can you imagine the hassle if thousands of different people built different parts for different things individually? Today's world and society needs a form of mass production. It's easy to jump on the "evil massive corporations" bandwagon, but while it's not very fun to think about, it's what we need. Do you really think that all the big corporations just quitting and leaving everything to local people would do anything? In my opinion, things would get worse. Buying local is a good thing, support your local farmers and businesses. But do remember, big corporations are not a bad thing. Tech advances, cheaper products, computer, cellphones ect. These were all made possible by big companies. If we'd stayed with everything local, the world would still be pre industrial era.
 
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