Parsons questions - help- (Calumma parsonii)

[Lleroy]

I've been breeding with veiled chameleons for a year now. I recently got some panthers and now I have a guy offering me a breeding pair of Parsons.

First of all I know nothing about Parsons.

I've seen the pair and they look exactly alike. To tell the truth he isn't completely sure if they are a male and female pair. He claims that they are about 9months old. I've done some research and seems like it’s very hard to tell the sex when they are younger than a year.

Is there anyone who can help me on any advice I can look for when buying them.
How can I tell which is male and which is female.
Are they worth trying to breed and keep?

I'd love to add them to my collection and start breeding with them and bring them into the market in my country. Financially they are going to set me back. Is it worth it?

Any help and advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[Sang]

Parsons are extremly difficult to breed first off, Many keepers who own parsons for years have had little to no success. Seeing as you are in africa that may be different.

but even with having experiences with vieled and panthers doesn't even compare to the skills it takes to keep/house / breed a parsons chameleon.

they will look the same sexually.

Depending on what he is charging you also may determine if they were taking from there home illegally and the guy may be trying to move them to make a quick buck.


Parsons require an insane amount of water, humidity and lower temperatures.


If this pair is in fact a wild pair like i suspect, they are probably riddled with parasites along with a Huge list of hidden problems.

 

[luevelvet]

From my research Parsonii are not an easy species to work with. The immediate challenges never change with them. They get very big, in turn requiring large areas. Most successful keepers have outdoor greenhouses or something similar. Incubation has also posed a challenge for some keepers. Eggs can incubate for 18-24 months. That's a long time to wait for any return on your investment, especially when dealing with live animals. Not to mention the fact that very few captive bred Parsonii are documented. Some folks believe they can't be bred in captivity, though I've read of a few people doing it over the years. although there is a community of Parsonii keepers around, they are very secretive and exclusive. I have a feeling they like to keep things quiet for a reason. I'm not suggesting anything negative necessarily, but it's been well known that many, if not most, Parsonii keepers don't like to discuss the topic in an open forum. Although, I will say that I have seen a few people on this board post pics of their setups and animals.

The market for Parsonii isn't very "clean" right now. They are seen on the black market and when the few that do become available, they are questioned to the n'th degree.

Personally, if the seller first claimed it was "breeding pair" but now claims to not know the sex, I would stay away from them. These aren't animals you acquire from someone who doesn't know what the score is.

Do a search on the boards and try to get around the ethic debates. You should be able to find some information on them.

Good luck,

Luis

 

[eisentrauti]

Hi,

one of your first sentences is: ...offers me a breeding pair... . That's in my opinion a pair which has juveniles before. If you have no experience with them it's very hard to differentiate the sexes in this age.
There are lots of other points which aren't good for you:
- If they are now 9 months old, you need minimum 12-15 months till they are in the age in which they probably mate. But with parsons you won't have the guarantee that they will do this even when you have a beautiful pair
- When this will work the female need some months to produce the eggs - when you have bad luck they aren't fertile.
- If not you need nearly two years !!! to incubate them.
- In this period you need only one day where your incubator doesnt work and everything is destroyed !
- When they hatch you don't have a gurantee that many of them survive the first months

So when everything works perfect you need to wait as well minimum 3,5 years till you have juveniles !
When you have lots of money, a lot of time, much space and lots of patience you can try it. If I live in SA I would concentrate on the beautiful Bradypodion species

Regards
Benny

btw: What's the price of the "pair" ?

 

[Lleroy]

Thank you all for the advice.

The owner of the pair has had them since last year June. They came in with a batch of about 20 in June 2008. Half of them lasted 3-6 months. Mostly dyeing because some people didn't have the right knowledge to keep them. The importing and permits was done legally and they have been at a Cites facility for about 2 weeks. They are parasite free.

"although there is a community of Parsonii keepers around, they are very secretive and exclusive." - luevelvet . That is true, I don’t understand why everyone is so unwilling to share information and be so secretive.

This was the only batch of Parsons we recently got into our country. Currently there are about 8 known left in our country.

"So when everything works perfect you need to wait as well minimum 3,5 years till you have juveniles !" - eisentrauti . That seems not worth it. Although if it works, it might be all worth it.

"If I live in SA I would concentrate on the beautiful Bradypodion species" - eisentrauti . I love the Bradypodions, I do own some(pics posted in the gallery). Unfortunately they are illegal to keep in SA because they are endangered. No way of getting permits. Although there are people breeding them.

"btw: What's the price of the "pair" ?" - eisentrauti . In USD it would be $ 595.

I still can’t decide. I know I can keep them properly. They are a gem for any collector.
Is there any way I can determine sex on them?

Thank you for all the replies so far, it is helping and I am leaning towards not getting them at this stage.

 

[eisentrauti]

Hi,

you can post some pics of the pair here. Maybe we can help you if we can see some pics. The price is very cheap for western conditions but I think it's a lot in SA. From which country are they imported ? If they are from Madagascar it was illegal and the papers are false.

Best regards
Benny

 

[dondeb562]

Correct me if I am wrong I am no expert by any means when it comes to parsons, but if he has had them since last June, there is no way he has hatched eggs from them. Does he have eggs in the incubator? Unless he has viable eggs he can not prove they are a breeding pair....
Am I worng here??

 

[Lleroy]

Correct me if I am wrong I am no expert by any means when it comes to parsons, but if he has had them since last June, there is no way he has hatched eggs from them. Does he have eggs in the incubator? Unless he has viable eggs he can not prove they are a breeding pair....
Am I worng here??

That is true. I've established that they are most certainly not a breeding pair. Still too young. He got 6 of them end of June. At that time they were about 1-2month of age. He claims they are now 9 -10months. If it was let’s say July, then they would be 11months now. They were apparently imported from a breeder. I'll find out from which country. I am basically certain they were legally imported.

"you can post some pics of the pair here." - eisentrauti (Benny). I will see them tomorrow and take some pictures. Should have taken some today. I'll post them tomorrow evening. I'll tell the guy to be patient and wait another day. The price is fairly expensive for SA. It compares to the price of about a 32" LCD screen, or an entire fairly decent dinner table and chairs set or 3 Panther Chameleons.

 

[eisentrauti]

Hi,

for the money I would take them wheater they are a breeding pair or not. But I couldn't believe they are legal, the CITES alone costs lot of money. And I don't think they are reproduced in captivity in Africa. So they are probably smuggled from Madagascar. If they are 9 months or 11 months or 13 months that makes no difference, they couldn't be a breeding pair

Regards
Benny

 

[dondeb562]

they go for way more here in this country (when available). I am sure any of the parsons breeders on this forum would jump to get them for the price of a 32 inch LCD here!

 

[eisentrauti]

they go for way more here in this country (when available). I am sure any of the parsons breeders on this forum would jump to get them for the price of a 32 inch LCD here!

Yes thats true !

 

[Lleroy]

Hi,

for the money I would take them wheater they are a breeding pair or not. But I couldn't believe they are legal, the CITES alone costs lot of money. And I don't think they are reproduced in captivity in Africa. So they are probably smuggled from Madagascar. If they are 9 months or 11 months or 13 months that makes no difference, they couldn't be a breeding pair

Regards
Benny

I'll try and ask the owner where they are from. I've spoken to a local guy here, he has been breeding chameleons for 12 years. He said that when the batch came in last year he also had a chance of buying a few, but decided against it because of it not being a profitable species. He gave me allot of positive and negative feedback. Confused me more on my decision.

I wish someone with Parson Experience can give me some insight.
I'll also take some pictures tomorrow and post them for advice.

I'm still not sure what I should do?

Thanks for your input Benny. I surely want to buy them, but need to be sure if it wouldn’t be a better choice to buy extra Panthers for my breeding collection or a Montium breeding pair, that’s coming in end of this month.

 

[eisentrauti]

If you want to make an sure investment to earn a bit of money buy some pardalis. If you are interested in one of the biggest and probably most beautiful chameleon species buy the two juvenils

 

[Chuck G]

Don't buy them as an investment. You will never make money on these chameleons. If you decide to get them for reasons other than profit, I will be glad to pm you information. This species is not to be taken lightly,it will require total dedication.

 

[Lleroy]

Don't buy them as an investment. You will never make money on these chameleons. If you decide to get them for reasons other than profit, I will be glad to pm you information. This species is not to be taken lightly,it will require total dedication.

I have realized that they won’t be an investment of any kind. If I do have success breeding them, there seems to be no market for them in our country anyway. I basically just love chameleons and would love to add Parsonii to my collection. Just to have them and see them every day is already enough of an investment to me.

The seller is offering them individually for about $358 each or $595 for both.

The problem is, him not knowing what sex they currently am.
Will I be able to keep them with my experience.

The breeding them would have just been an extra bonus, if one is female and the other male.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Information would really help, thans Chuck.

 

[Lleroy]

I will take some pictures of them tomorrow.
I really need help from someone with experience to help me determine if one is male and the other female.

 

[Chuck G]

I will pm some info about what to look for when you inspect them for problems. Take pictures!

 

[Lleroy]

I will pm some info about what to look for when you inspect them for problems. Take pictures!

Thanks Chuck. I'll post the pictures tomorrow evening.

Another question though. How long does Parsons live?

I cant seem to find much information on them on the web. I did find some info, but mostly things I already know.

Would it be possible to tell the sex at age +/- 10 months?

 

[Lleroy]

If you want to make an sure investment to earn a bit of money buy some pardalis. If you are interested in one of the biggest and probably most beautiful chameleon species buy the two juvenils

Thanks for the help. I'll let you know what I decided in a day or two.

 

[Chuck G]

Thanks Chuck. I'll post the pictures tomorrow evening.

Another question though. How long does Parsons live?

I cant seem to find much information on them on the web. I did find some info, but mostly things I already know.

Would it be possible to tell the sex at age +/- 10 months?

They can live 20 years if well taken care of. My oldest male is about 8.
At 10 months of age they will be fairly easy to sex.